Noisy JinBao Chinese mini balls /linkage fix on rotary tubas

[bisontuba]

Hi-
I have never been a fan of the JinBao rotary valve mini balls as they tend to wear out quickly..resulting in noise/clunking. Options are to replace them with German mini balls ( expensive--approx. $30 each and you need two per rotor), or change them out to plastic ball & socket. I tend to shy away from synthetic oils and grease ( my body chemistry?), but there really is a great product that works on the clankiness of the linkage/mini balls from China--Hetman #15 ball joint lubricant. It has a needle applicator and is quite thick, but what a difference it makes. As Hetman says, it also acts to dampen vibrations--and it certainly does. Instant success!
So if you have noisy Chinese rotary valve linkage / mini balls, try some Hetman #15.... a great product and an easy fix! Two thumbs up.
Regards-
Mark

[Tubaguyry]

Thanks for the tip, Mark!

[Dan Schultz]

I find it diffucult to understand why folks continue to flock to the marketplace to purchase stuff (not just tubas) that are known to have a very early 'death date'.

[PaulMaybery]

Joe. Good Post!!! In keeping with the 'higher end' linkage on the 'higher end' Asian imports, do you believe it to be feasable for such 'higher end' sets to be readily available for those who would like to upgrade "after market?"

I have not actually measured any of the imports to see how similar they are, but they seem, at least by eyeballing them, pretty much the same.

In the old days (1970s) I ordered from MW a whole assembly that I installed on a Bohm and Meinl. The two screw holes needed to be drilled to fit, but otherwise a good generic fit.

Certainly a set, from let's say a Packer, with the leveling springs on the ball joints and a substantially heavier rod and paddle would be appealing. They even feel sturdier for those of use who tend to "mash" from time to time.

If these 'higher end' sets could be an item for a simple after market order, no questions about intent, it would be meaningful for those of us who would like to upgrade.

Maybe this is already available - I have no experience at this point.

Paul

[bisontuba]

JinBao needs to address their rotary linkage, finger paddles, back plate rotor caps, etc. They have improved, but they need to take the next step and refine these issues.
I know several people who have had Chinese mini balls installed on their German rotary tubas to update their 'S' linkage ( because the German made ones cost is crazy)....and they have had them replaced with the black plastic ball and socket parts. The Chinese linkage and ball & socket wear out too fast. I was going to do that too, but if an $8 bottle of ball socket lubricant does the trick, it works for me.
The overall issue does need to be addressed to make on par with Eastman, Packer, and Wisemann ( Note: much better to have this issue than to have piston valves whose cap threads are way to thin and not coarse enough, resulting in really pain in the *** problems.....).
Mark

[bisontuba]

All of those things cost time and money.

Regardless of whether the ruling system is communistic, fascistic, or capitalistic, time and money still exist.

Addressing any/all of those issues would increase costs, just as with higher-cost instruments that do not sport those issues.

The market (consumers) seem to be more widely attracted to cost than to functionality.

Agreed!

[bisontuba]

to Paul's post...

B-grade rotary valves themselves would still be the same assemblies. The striking difference is "feel" is more credited to the rotors themselves (those built to first-world standards) than to the linkage.

The lower-cost nickel-plated-over-brass finger paddle assemblies (assuming adult use) probably endure, and (though tedious) their hinge tubing could be extended lengthwise to fit with something resembling precision to fit between the support risers...and (sure) stop rings could be brazed on to those horizontal rods 1/4" away from the links to support springs which would control those small-gauge links...

...but (again) the rotors' fit/finish specs(, feel, performance, and maintenance requirements) would still be the same.

In the past, when I've "rebuilt" old tubas, the vast majority of the work went into their valvesets. Surely, the same is true with original fabrication.

A Chevrolet Spark and a Mini Cooper are about the same size, can both start, stop, climate-control the cab, realize the legal speed limits, play tunes out of their dashboards, and please their owners...but they are just not the same, and upgrading a Spark to the quality of a Mini Cooper would be way more trouble and expense than selling the Spark and buying a Mini Cooper...

...and - with the different build-grades of Asian tubas - not only is the action/feel different, but (arguably) sonic characteristics differ as well.

So, when are you selling your JinBao Cimbasso and buying a Rudi Meinl Cimbasso?

[bisontuba]

Neat!

[Dan Schultz]

Sorry.... I just couldn't stay away from this thread. I just had a customer pick up his sons YTR-200ADII (Yamaha) trumpet. Just so I wouldn't let my mouth overload my a**.... I checked the reviews of this horn on a couple of trumpet forums. I am totally stunned that unknowing folks are posting stuff like "this horn looks just like the YTR-2335 so I'm going with the $400 one instead of the $2,500 Yamaha because it must be just as good". Poor stupid unknowing parents!

I had to be the one to tell this parent that the reason why the kid's 1st and 3rd valves were jamming is because of the crappy construction of the slide tubes that are hanging out in space instead of being properly braced. We'll... there really isn't a good way to brace this configuration of slide tubes so the difference between the student and pro models must be in the way they are joined to the valve cluster. Yeah.... right.

Of course... these are the same folks who believe anything they read on The Internet instead of listening to the advice of their kids' music teacher or the guy who is tasked with keeping these horns playing.

I know, I know... some teachers 'get it' and some don't. Same way with repairmen. (I didn't say that with anyone on The Forum in mind). .... just sayin'.

I just get real tired of trying to justify junk just because of the price point.

End or rant.

[Heavy_Metal]

I spent less on my Alexander than I would have paid for some Chinese tubas. OK, it might be a hundred years old (we really don't know), it has a few patches, and I've had to have some work done on the valve gear (shout-out to Baltimore Brass), but at the end of the day I still have an Alexander. And, if properly cared for, this Alex will likely still be playing long after I'm gone- as will the Sonora, 20J etc. in my stable.

Can we say the same about JinBao et al?

[Ken Crawford]

I spent less on my Alexander than I would have paid for some C. nese tubas. OK, it might be a hundred years old (we really don't know), it has a few patches, and I've had to have some work done on the valve gear (shout-out to Baltimore Brass), but at the end of the day I still have an Alexander. And, if properly cared for, this Alex will likely still be playing long after I'm gone- as will the Sonora, 20J etc. in my stable.

Can we say the same about JinBao et al?

Properly cared for there is no reason a Chinese built tuba couldn't last 100 years. They're made of the same stuff. How many Alexanders built in 1916 have rotted away or been otherwise discarded? Most of them.

[Heavy_Metal]

Properly cared for there is no reason a Chinese built tuba couldn't last 100 years. They're made of the same stuff.

Not so sure the metal in the Chinese tubas is the same quality. AFAIK no one has compared the two. This would take a metallurgist to do properly.

How many Alexanders built in 1916 have rotted away or been otherwise discarded? Most of them.

I would suspect that a lot of serviceable instruments in Germany were scrapped for the two World War efforts. Not such a good example.

Compare a Ryland or other recent development house with one built in the first part of the 20th century. Unless the older one has been butchered, in almost all cases one would find it's built more solidly than the new one. I've watched recent houses being built- it looks like they're using matchsticks and cardboard. How will that hold up over fifty years or so?

[Wyvern]

Thank you for the feedback which is useful towards Wessex and I am sure Jinbao in making improvements. To be fair, out of the numerous rotary valve tubas we have sold, only about 5% of customers have reported noisy rotors, but that is 5% too many and we are determined to address any issues. I think the problems are caused by lack of consistency and that is something I am always drumming into Jinbao production. Must be consistent every time!

There was previously similar problem with threads on piston valves, but I think we now have that sorted. In the last two batches I have checked at factory, there has not been a single threading problem.

I will be back at factory April and will raise all issues mentioned in this thread and in messages with customers to get corrected. Jinbao are having a major drive towards quality improvements in 2016, so will be able to ensure they rectify any production shortcomings as part of that project.

The one mentioned by Bloke above of soft rotor levers of nickel plating over brass has at least in the case of production for Wessex been corrected. I insist that all for Wessex are solid nickel. I have no idea if they have applied for other companies production. Sometimes they incorporate what I have raised in all production (e.g. Stronger bell collars on sousaphones) and sometime just do so for Wessex - that is a factory decision. I am personally only concerned with what comes out with Wessex on the bell.

For the composite of brass from China, what I know as a fact is yellow brass is 68% copper, while gold brass is 84% copper - which I believe is much the same as used by German factories. I cannot see any reason why Chinese made tubas should not last as long as those made in the west.

[Dan Schultz]

.... Properly cared for there is no reason a Chinese built tuba couldn't last 100 years. They're made of the same stuff. How many Alexanders built in 1916 have rotted away or been otherwise discarded? Most of them.

Many of you guys have missed the point of many of the posts I've made in this regard. The longevity of a horns has less to do with the quality of the brass as is does to the 'fit and finish' of the mechanical parts. 'Fit and finish' has NOTHING to do with how bright and shiny an instrument-shaped-object is.

Picture two moving parts rubbing against each other that have surface conditions that resemble sandpaper or small grooves. THIS is where the Chinese stuff is lacking. Those surfaces are going to wear down and lose tolerance MUCH quicker that a properly ground or lapped finish. Worn rotor bearings will equal draggy rotors in very little time. This is because as the bearings wear, the rotor bodies start to rub against the inside of the housing. Most cheaply-made rotor bearing surfaces are rough. Just drag your fingernail across a rotor spindle from a quality German-made horn and then across the rotor spindle of a $2,000 horn.

The Asians CAN do things right but it will cost you more.

[bisontuba]

For the composite of brass from China, what I know as a fact is yellow brass is 68% copper, while gold brass is 84% copper - which I believe is much the same as used by German factories. I cannot see any reason why Chinese made tubas should not last as long as those made in the west.

I thought my Berg Bell looked deeper red than gold brass--at 84% copper, that is more 'rose brass'--gorgeous sound--I like
Mark

[bisontuba]

For the composite of brass from China, what I know as a fact is yellow brass is 68% copper, while gold brass is 84% copper - which I believe is much the same as used by German factories. I cannot see any reason why Chinese made tubas should not last as long as those made in the west.

I thought my Berg Bell looked deeper red than gold brass--at 84% copper, that is more towards 'rose brass'--gorgeous sound--I like
Mark

[tubamlb]

We have found that noisy valve linkage on Jinbao Instruments and other makes is usually caused by lack of maintenance, lose stop screws ,lose link arm nuts , lose lever screw, and lack of proper lubrication

We can tell you we see this all the time , simple fix and inform the customer what maintenance they should do

Again it does not make a difference if you pay $20,000.00 or $2,000.00 you need to Maintain your instrument like you do your Auto at lease check your air in the tires and change the oil and filter

Thank you

M&M Instruments
Boca Raton FL

[MikeMason]

Mr m&m, wow.