interesting discussion with a friend...

[pwhitaker]

How many artisans can dance on the head of a tympani?

[bisontuba]

- Does bloke really have a "friend," or was he really talking to his cat?

The stuffed cat?

[Micah Everett]

I suspect that your "friend," who might have only skimmed through the article in question, understood the author as saying that the title and self-identity of "artist" was on the way out in favor of a more artisan or craftsman type of understanding. This "friend" might have even thought this was a good thing, without otherwise buying into all the details of the article.

As for what an orchestral musician "is" according to this understanding, I don't know. I'm not sure I care as long as it sounds good and there are folks out there that want to hear it. I have no real need to be viewed as an "artist."

As for whether or not Joe has "friends," well, aren't all Facebook contacts "friends?"

[Donn]

Most music follows a template to some extent. The true exceptions tend to be unlistenable. A jazz solo break still follows the chords, a fiddler basically follows his tune but is likely to throw some stuff in.

And then your ensembles that read from the page in performance. So are they doing the same thing - following a template, but adding something? Let's not talk about amateur groups that might be past their limit just following the printed directions ("you call that pp!?") I think some orchestra musicians think they do add something, and would be disappointed to hear that people think their music performance is sort of a flesh and bone equivalent of a player piano. With all the annotations for dynamics etc., written music is still a crude approximation to what happens.

So artist or artisan - well, I think that is less a question of how exalted the individual ability, and more about what kind of product it is. If it's in the domain of art, as music certainly is, then we're artists.

[proam]

I think of a "cover band" or playing "covers" as performing music that is intrinsically associated with a particular group. You cannot think of the song without thinking of the group. (May or may not be the group that originated the music. And the songwriter may or may not be associated with the group.) With popular music, the group that popularized it and the song are linked.

What is an example of orchestra music written especially for one group or that became so associated with that group of musicians that others performing the song still make you think of the associated group? Not even Strauss waltzes are hard and fast linked to the Vienna Philharmonic, for example.

-- Joe

PS - while I know "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction" is a Rolling Stone song, I, myself, associate it more with Devo...

[cjk]

Yep, symphony orchestras are cover bands playing 12 dead guys' greatest hits.

[cambrook]

As a musician I've always considered myself an interpretive artist - I play music written by other people so I feel that I'm only bringing their works to life, not creating my own work.

I regard people improvising or playing their own works as creative artists.
To go back to bloke's original question, if a cover band was trying to replicate the song they were performing as a "close to an exact copy" of the recording I'd regard that as more of an artisanal approach, but if they were changing the feel (as 58mark) then that's a bit down the line towards artistic.

All this is splitting hairs, and I'd enjoy this discussion more over a beer....

[eutubabone]

Hmmm. Interesting discussion. I assume that these artists/musicians everyone is talking about display proper use/interpretation of artistic license when they play the music. I would like to get this license too. Can anybody show me where to get this license and what it looks like?

[Three Valves]

From Bloke-servations past...

You show up to work on time in a uniform with your tools and do what you are told.

HVAC Tech or "Artist??"

[chronolith]

I will always remember an interaction I had with a composer who we commissioned to write a premiere for our season opener. It was clear that a lot of detail was left out of the first draft in order to get music on the stands for the first rehearsal. One section had some fairly important melodic content in the tuba but without any extra markings. I "played the ink" but sought out the composer after rehearsal and asked "How did you want this phrased and executed?" It was similar content to what showed up in an oboe part before it but I did not want to assume it was meant to echo it either. The composer looked right back at me and said "How do you think it should sound? What would you do?". It was not meant as a test. The composer wanted my creative input. I paid a certain amount of homage to the oboe statement while putting some characteristic tuba spin on it. Composer was happy enough to say that it was better than she imagined it.

Having worked with a few composers, and composed a bit myself, there does seem to be this idea that they see their work as basic midwifery rather than an exact distillation of an unchangeable vision. They wanted the work to take on a life of its own and become something more. To demand interpretation. Obviously this depends on the composer and whether or not you even have access to their attitudes on the matter.

And so I see that the title artist does apply under the right circumstances. The artist brings something new or unique to the table. Something the listener has not heard before whether they have heard the piece 0 times or 10,000 times.

[iiipopes]

Just about the most smart-*** remark a symphony musician can say to a music director (who is being very descriptive, analogous, and esoteric about "just how they would like to hear a phrase interpreted") is to interject, "so...you want me to play it like the record...??"

When I was a senior in high school band, one of the pieces on our fall concert was a medly of the themes from a well known movie, and the band parts included an actual written bass guitar part. Unfortunaltey, of course, the bass guitar part had been oversimplified to the clichéd one --- and three -- one --- and three, etc. I had the soundtrack at home. Fortunately, the medly had been arranged for concert band in the same keys for the various snippets of themes as the soundtrack. As I was playing through the written part at rehearsal, and sounding like crap, when the director stopped to give a pointer, I raised my hand. I actually asked if he wanted the written part, or did he want me to make it sound like the record. He thought a minute, and actually said to make it sound like the record. So I did. Everything sounded much better because the rest of the band also knew the soundtrack and could cue off the "real" bass guitar line, and the piece in concert sounded great.

[The Big Ben]

PS - while I know "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction" is a Rolling Stone song, I, myself, associate it more with Devo...

Speaking of covers:

Ike and Tina Turner spent most of their career together playing one night gigs on the chitlin' circuit. By necessity, they played mostly covers and some original pieces. That said, with whom do you associate "Proud Mary"? Ike and Tina Turner or John Fogerty and CCR?

Jeff "Never does nuthin' nice and easy. Always does it nice and rough" Benedict

[Z-Tuba Dude]

...so, What is an "artist"?
Is an "extraordinarily highly-skilled instruction-follower" an "artist" ?

Only about 60% of the composers original intentions can even be noted. It's that poorly defined 40% that gives the artist the chance to shine, or not...