German Vs. American sound... Change in personal definition

[Donn]

So do you think all the other instruments are all the same, too - every violin sounds the same, trumpet, all trombones sound the same, etc.? Or is it just tubas?

[southtubist]

I sound like the stereotypical American player with a 6/4 when I play my Alex, especially in ensemble. I played in a 2-man section where the other guy was playing an MW Baer, and he wasn't a lightweight. . . I played the low part and easily kept up in both volume and size of sound. Come to think of it, I sounded almost the same when I played a 6/4 Miraphone 190.

I think you just need a tuba that "sings" when you play it and a really strong sound concept in your mind. I've heard plenty of players who sounded tiny on really big tubas. I believe that for 99% of us a 6/4 is too big. I think the German vs. American comparison is too narrow of a comparison. That's just my wacky opinion, of course. . .

[Donn]

Sure, there are differences...but no one cares or notices beyond anyone who subscribes to this list.

That would be us, though, am I right? Is there anyone else here? The inverse of "no one cares but us" is that "we care", and that's why it came up.

If anyone would isolate a German 6/4 from an American BAT, you will find difference in taper, metalurgy and mechanics.

Specifically, I think we usually have in mind a particular shape of bell - the BAT curving out to get wider at the top before the flare, where the Kaiser is a straighter taper. But just looking at various pictures of tubas of American and German origin, casually and rather late at night, I'm not sure I see that so clearly, nor any other characteristic difference between American and German tuba bell shapes.

Has anyone ever put a 2341 bell on a 186?

[oedipoes]

Here...Check THIS out...
(At least) when I listen, I don't hear "German". I don't hear "American". I don't hear "6/4". I only hear GOOD.

Sergio is from Portugal, playing a Japanese-branded tuba, made in Germany (I think) on stage in Japan !!
That's the "Japanese" sound, right?
(he's GOOD !!)

[chronolith]

I sorta feel like the German vs. American thing should be relegated to the same pile as lacquer vs. silver, rotary vs. piston, and BBb vs CC, etc.

I am not going to be the one to say it is all down to the player because it is not true, but it is MOSTLY down to the player and the most skilled among us will be able to fool just about anybody in a German vs. American sound test regardless of instrument. The gear makes a difference but it appeals and reacts to us as players on a level most of us choose not to try and understand. We interact with it in terms of good and bad, or better and worse. It's good not to over-analyze things sometimes. It's a good way to turn a short trip into a long one mentally. It's also the same mechanism in your mind that allows you to decide to make a "German sound" or an "American sound". You can try and boil it down to specifics of technique, tongue placement, emphasis and de-emphasis, or a million other things. But the tuba in your head can take all sorts of shortcuts and work out most of the specifics without your "help". I like to tell people often that your brain is smarter than you are. Don't get in its way.

[Donn]

You guys are so full of baloney. Remember this stuff you've been spouting next time you're looking at a new tuba.

[Cthuba]

I'm glad to see that this topic that I have created has truly evolved into something deep and meaningful ...

[jimgray]

This thread has seriously degraded, and I think it's a somewhat interesting topic.
I tend to gravitate towards German. Big time unfashionable of me, but that's my bag.

All that said - thanks Bloke for the reference to Sergio Carolino - my new hero.
Holy crap!

Check out his band TGB.
<3

wow...

[Steve Marcus]

...ALL of these models of tubas (this shape of bell combined with that style of valveset and this taper of bugle...etc., etc...) are now out there and are all being used...all over the world.

FWIW, still not aware of any Melton 197, 198, or 200 in North America, nor a Nirschl copy/revision of the B&F Kaiser tuba. An Alex 164 might come close to the Melton models (are there a few of those in North America?).

[bort]

completely agree with DP here...

[...words...]

The hell are you talking about, that is clearly THE premier recording of that piece. You people don't know good recordings when you hear them.

[oedipoes]

These players are listed on the Melton site for the 197, but a lot of Hilgers' former students play that model of tuba:

Stefan Ambrosius
Stefan Heimann
Sam Hosking
Siegfried Jung
Stefan Tischler
Alexander von Puttkamer
Sebastian Wagemann
Jürgen Wirth
Mannheim Brass Quintett

[bort]

A few years ago, I saw a study that tested whether a person's race could be correctly identified, by only listening to a recording of their voice.

I think someone needs to do this for tubas.

[bort]

A few years ago, I saw a study that tested whether a person's race could be correctly identified, by only listening to a recording of their voice.

I can tell - just by reading your post - that you're fatter than you used to be.

I'm older than I used to be, but not fatter. Come to think of it, I've probably been +/- 5 pounds of my current (lean) weight all my adult life. So no, I'm not one of those pear-shaped researcher types, if that's what you are implying.

I thought my point was perfectly relevant. My weight is where this takes a weird turn...

[Three Valves]

This reminds me of the adage;

"You can't judge a book by it's cover"

No??

Why would I give up on a reliable system that's right 60%+ of the time??

If I could pick winners against the spread 60%+ of the time I'd be on easy street!!

[oedipoes]

' ever notice that an actual 197 tuba's bell is more more normal in appearance that the web-drawing that we've all seen so many times...??

That's because they have been made with a 460mm bell in the past, now it is 420mm.
The bigger one is like the one for sale in the picture below (no personal connection, just found this one while looking for pictures):

http://www.dhd24.com/azl/index.php?anz_id=40509640

[bort]

Are there any pictures of "real" ones (not that web-pic we've all seen) with the smaller bell...??

Someone apparently decided to Siegfried-ize the mouthpipe angle of that one
(and yes, I'm aware that some very old tubas feature that style of mouthpipe bend).

I don't think I took any pictures when I saw the Berlin Philharmonic play (both in Berlin and in NYC), but Alexander von Puttkamer had his 197 in both performances. The bell is quite "funny looking" to me. And it sounds #@!$-ing amazing!

[Peach]

Are there any pictures of "real" ones (not that web-pic we've all seen) with the smaller bell...??

Someone apparently decided to Siegfried-ize the mouthpipe angle of that one
(and yes, I'm aware that some very old tubas feature that style of mouthpipe bend).

I just recently playtested a 197 which sported the almost-straight-sided bell. Should have taken a picture as it'll likely be the only one I'll ever play!

[oedipoes]

Are there any pictures of "real" ones (not that web-pic we've all seen) with the smaller bell...??

Someone apparently decided to Siegfried-ize the mouthpipe angle of that one
(and yes, I'm aware that some very old tubas feature that style of mouthpipe bend).

I just recently playtested a 197 which sported the almost-straight-sided bell. Should have taken a picture as it'll likely be the only one I'll ever play!

And, what do you think about it?

[oedipoes]

Are there any pictures of "real" ones (not that web-pic we've all seen) with the smaller bell...??

There you go:

[Peach]

The 197 is obviously a great tuba but I won't be buying one.
Firstly they are expensive - about the same as a handmade Baer.
Also, it is that expensive as a 4v. A dependent 5th is possible as an extra. I'm used to an independent 5th.
*For me* it was a tricky tuba to get around on. The sound on individual notes was great but other instruments offer greater flexibility to me. Now I'll freely admit the issue is down to my limitations but there it is. I'm also maybe quite used to pistons. Intonation was also more difficult than I would like to deal with. The standout note was 1st valve C which was a mile under (I didn't use a tuner). Valve combinations seemed to vary throughout harmonics so a good bit of adjustment would be needed. This one sported a nifty self-centering two way 1st valve slide...

Some class players use these and obviously make them work incredibly well, but they are all a lot better than I am!