Wessex BBb Tubas

[bort]

STOP! ENOUGH!

Before anything else is said, let's get to the bottom of this: does, or does not Miraphone have a patent on a valve, or something related to a valve, that is a change in the way the valve is constructed so that it can be removed in a different manner than the conventional process? And on the other hand, does, or does not Wessex or its valve supplier have such a patent?

I know how to search patent records, and I did not find such a patent, at least a USA patent. I challenge the entire forum to search and post an actual link to an actual patent that is relevant, and not just one that talks about air flow, like the Thayer or Wilk patents.

To all the above: link in the supposed patent, or shut up and go home. Too many aspersions have been cast.

Not a patent link, but this is the Miraphone thing:

http://www.miraphone.de/en/downloads.ht ... System.pdf

[iiipopes]

Not a patent link, but this is the Miraphone thing:
http://www.miraphone.de/en/downloads.ht ... System.pdf

Thanks. No, it isn't a patent, but it is a step in the right direction towards getting to the bottom of everything. My initial impression is that this particular rotor is used only on upper brass. This would make sense, since it seems the rotor has only one true bearing point on the top, and not on the bottom, which would necessitate more torque, and possibly more wear, for a larger mass valve.

As an objective comment: there are now over nine million patents on file in the USA. A comprehensive patent search to cite all of the prior art in any application gets more difficult all the time. And yes, unfortunately, enforcement of intellectual property rights is not uniform country to country.

Instead of casting aspersions, I would encourage all companies, whether Miraphone, Wessex, Jin Bao, and everyone else, to simply be more careful, increase the amount of due diligence done to recognize the prior state of the art in existance, and better document any claims of any attributes of any particular product or component.

Now, let's all adjourn and have a virtual beverage of choice.

[iiipopes]

I have been sent a link to a German patent that may be on point:
http://google.com/patents/EP0875058B1?cl=zh-CN" target="_blank" target="_blank

But also note at the bottom it may have lapsed due to non-payment of renewal fees, including Great Britain.

This points to my prior comment: the companies must be more careful and diligent in their research, in making their claims, and stating the status of any particular patent.

[Three Valves]

I have been sent a link to a German patent that may be on point:
http://google.com/patents/EP0875058B1?cl=zh-CN" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

But also note at the bottom it may have lapsed due to non-payment of renewal fees, including Great Britain.

This points to my prior comment: the companies must be more careful and diligent in their research, in making their claims, and stating the status of any particular patent.

I really really have to ask ...how is this not "casting aspersions"? What 'appened to "STOP...ENOUGH!" ?
I get that you reserve the right to protest when you feel bothered because you opened something and read it,
but put differently, weren't you then saying "shut up unless I want to listen" ...
yet now are sayin' "listen I have something to say" ? What a crock ...

Posting a link to a fact is not "casting aspersions."

Calling someone or their actions sleazy, without all the facts however, is casting aspersions.

[bisontuba]

So Dale, when are you ordering a Wessex tuba?

[Three Valves]

...but there is one more important fact to consider here, this is the important one:
fact The conviction that expressing your opinion is valid and (to some extent) a "right",
is only so to the extent that you would extend similar "right" to another's, indeed ALL others' opinions
[/size]...now why did you not address the "shut up unless I want to listen" argument?

If all opinions were of equal merit, you'd have a point.

They aren't, so you don't!!

[Three Valves]

So Dale, when are you ordering a Wessex tuba?

There is probably a better chance of me buying Hillary's car than that!!

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hillary-Clinton ... OSwUUdXDY2~" target="_blank

[bububassboner]

Disclaimer: I've never been hands on with the miraphone valve and I've only seen the Wessex valve once at the musikmesse.

I don't think these valves are very similar. The miraphone valve has one screw at the top. A normal place for a screw. Seems that you can just lift the valve out on this one.

The Wessex valves I saw had a screw on the side of the casing. I didn't get a chance to take one apart but from what I saw there and the patent diagrams I saw I don't think they are very alike. The description from the two on what they do may be similar but I don't think they are built alike.

I'd love a chance to take each one apart and really look at how they work. There are so many different designs for a rotor valve now. Hell I saw a titanium rotor valve that featured non tapered bearings at the musikmesse as well.

There are many valves that are similar, but I'm not convinced that the Wessex valve is a straight out copy. Before you all turn the flamethrowers on me read my disclaimer above.

[bigtubby]

Oh my, I had no idea how many tubists held day jobs as IP attorneys. Do you all truly purport to mount a legal defense against alleged patent infringement with so little actual evidence? I am impressed because that is such an arcane and complex area of law that my business attorneys have always given me references to specialists when I needed help with these matters.

As I see it there is one thing in question in this thread (well, the part about personal/business integrity) and it has nothing to do with whether the "Patented Z Valve" is similar enough to any earlier design, whether any other company had an even vaguely similar design or whether the TNFJ has officially anointed Wessex Tubas as their official Importer of Chinese Built Tubas.

IMO the only germane questions are:

1. Did Wessex Tubas or their agents make any claims to hold patent(s) (in any country) for their fabulous new invention which was referred to in their sales efforts as the "Z Valve"?

2. If so, did Wessex Tubas or their agents actually hold patent(s) for said bit of hardware design?

Since Wessex Tuba's agents frequent this forum these should be easily and quickly answered, should they not?

While I have no ax to grind, I have seen evidence to answer question #1 above and can only wait for the answer to question #2.

So to many of the above: Please present your arguments as to why any mention Miraphone or other extraneous BS is anything other than obfuscation or shut up and go home.

<EDIT>
Oops I should have read recent posts when I returned home before responding. Seems that "DP" has succinctly addressed the salient concerns:
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=66189&start=24#p584350

[edsel585960]

Didn't miraphone and everybody else just copy V.F. Cerveny's rotary valves anyway?

[bigtubby]

Didn't miraphone and everybody else just copy V.F. Cerveny's rotary valves anyway?

Are you suggesting that "miraphone and everybody" claimed to hold patent for rotary valves and that this would somehow absolve a modern genius tuba designer/importer of not quite truthy advertising statements?

Back in the 50s and 60s, Edsel's daddy's company "and everybody" built cars with horrid fuel mileage and CO emissions. Does this absolve VW and Mitsubishi of knowingly making false claims in their advertising in recent years?

[iiipopes]

I really really have to ask ...how is this not "casting aspersions"? What 'appened to "STOP...ENOUGH!" ?
I get that you reserve the right to protest when you feel bothered because you opened something and read it,
but put differently, weren't you then saying "shut up unless I want to listen" ...
yet now are sayin' "listen I have something to say" ? What a crock ...

I made objective observations after reading the document. I did not challenge the veracity of anything or anybody, and I made no subjective value judgments of the persons and entities involved.

Now, if you don't know the difference between objective analysis and slinging mud, then you have a lot to learn yourself.

[bisontuba]

Happy Earth Day!

[Three Valves]

Comrades!!

[iiipopes]

I really really have to ask ...how is this not "casting aspersions"? What 'appened to "STOP...ENOUGH!" ?
I get that you reserve the right to protest when you feel bothered because you opened something and read it,
but put differently, weren't you then saying "shut up unless I want to listen" ...
yet now are sayin' "listen I have something to say" ? What a crock ...

I made objective observations after reading the document. I did not challenge the veracity of anything or anybody, and I made no subjective value judgments of the persons and entities involved.

Now, if you don't know the difference between objective analysis and slinging mud, then you have a lot to learn yourself.

pfft!
your language has drifted from polite legalese ("aspersions") to something less than that ("mudslinging") ...that makes me think you are the one bearing malice here, popesie

Now...what did you say happened to "STOP!! ENOUGH" ?

Dammit! If you had actually read my post, especially my comment about how the registration of the patent seemed to have expired due to lack of renewal fee in the UK, that was as objective an observation as it gets, and was actually in Wessex' favor. You obviously have no clue how to read documents, and for your prior comment about intellectual property, yes, I did take that course in law school. Currently, I am not a lawyer; I do not practice; but I can damn well still analyze documents and make reasonable objective inferences from what I read before me, and render my personal opinions accordingly. If you disagree with them, that is one thing, but to accuse me of mudslinging is way off the mark, and you are out of line. Now, get off. I don't give a damn if it is earth day or not, I will still purchase a virtual beverage for you to just go away and think about the difference between objective discussion where reasonable persons may differ, and your mudslinging, which you desperately need to learn the difference.

[bort]

Whoa...

Earth day is still a thing?

[Wyvern]

I do not want to prolong the mud slinging of this thread any longer, but need to put the record straight. At the time the previously quoted post was made, Wessex Tubas was just in the process of filing for patent on the Z valves - but then it was highlighted that there may be previous patent for something similar, so we stopped and reviewed the situation. The previous post maybe should have said 'patent pending', but I am no lawyer and it was probably poorly worded. Why all this big fuss about wording anyway? The only reason to mention patent is to try to stop competitors using the idea. I don't know anyone who buys a product just because an aspect is patented.

I also don't know why some of you so have it in for a small company like Wessex Tubas who are doing our very best to improve the standard of Chinese made brass, and increase the options of tubas and euphonium available - making people's dreams of owning a tuba come true. I don't do this to make lots of money (to the disappointment of my wife), but mainly for the love of tubas, as anyone who knows me will attest. If you doubt, visit the Wessex Tubas booth at ITEC. We will have five new models of tuba and a new front action compensated euphonium on show. None of those are 'clones' - all original new designs. I will be proud to show you - and pleased to meet you in person whoever you may be (yes even you DP) as we are all part of the tuba brotherhood (or sisterhood).



Jonathan

[Three Valves]

There.

See??

Now you haters can just keep on doin' what you do!!

[bisontuba]

I do not want to prolong the mud slinging of this thread any longer, but need to put the record straight. At the time the previously quoted post was made, Wessex Tubas was just in the process of filing for patent on the Z valves - but then it was highlighted that there may be previous patent for something similar, so we stopped and reviewed the situation. The previous post maybe should have said 'patent pending', but I am no lawyer and it was probably poorly worded. Why all this big fuss about wording anyway? The only reason to mention patent is to try to stop competitors using the idea. I don't know anyone who buys a product just because an aspect is patented.

I also don't know why some of you so have it in for a small company like Wessex Tubas who are doing our very best to improve the standard of Chinese made brass, and increase the options of tubas and euphonium available - making people's dreams of owning a tuba come true. I don't do this to make lots of money (to the disappointment of my wife), but mainly for the love of tubas, as anyone who knows me will attest. If you doubt, visit the Wessex Tubas booth at ITEC. We will have five new models of tuba and a new front action compensated euphonium on show. None of those are 'clones' - all original new designs. I will be proud to show you - and pleased to meet you in person whoever you may be (yes even you DP) as we are all part of the tuba brotherhood (or sisterhood).



Jonathan

+1.....

[iiipopes]

I do not want to prolong the mud slinging of this thread any longer, but need to put the record straight. At the time the previously quoted post was made, Wessex Tubas was just in the process of filing for patent on the Z valves - but then it was highlighted that there may be previous patent for something similar, so we stopped and reviewed the situation. The previous post maybe should have said 'patent pending', but I am no lawyer and it was probably poorly worded. Why all this big fuss about wording anyway? The only reason to mention patent is to try to stop competitors using the idea. I don't know anyone who buys a product just because an aspect is patented.

I also don't know why some of you so have it in for a small company like Wessex Tubas who are doing our very best to improve the standard of Chinese made brass, and increase the options of tubas and euphonium available - making people's dreams of owning a tuba come true. I don't do this to make lots of money (to the disappointment of my wife), but mainly for the love of tubas, as anyone who knows me will attest. If you doubt, visit the Wessex Tubas booth at ITEC. We will have five new models of tuba and a new front action compensated euphonium on show. None of those are 'clones' - all original new designs. I will be proud to show you - and pleased to meet you in person whoever you may be (yes even you DP) as we are all part of the tuba brotherhood (or sisterhood).



Jonathan

+2 Thanks.