Medium sized rotary CC tubas (and a realization)

[bort]

Background: I think I am finally resigning myself to the fact that I'm just NOT a big-tuba guy. I really WANT a big tuba to work for me, and honestly, I can play it just fine and it's very effective. However, the sound doesn't "sound like me" -- the sound of a big tuba played lightly is less appealing to me than the sound of a smaller tuba being driven harder. It sounds nice, and I can go along with it and be alright, but more and more, it's not what I have in mind. (I hate trying to describe sounds, but I hope you all will understand well enough.)

Before you all tell me I'm crazy, yes, I already know that. Also, I'm in no hurry, and fully plan to give my Willson another year or so (or rather, I'll give myself another year or so to try and get in-step with the Willson). However, I think that just maybe, after 20 years of playing tuba, I might have finally realized what kinds of tubas are the most natural fit for me, and what kinds of tubas are things that I have to work to make them work. I don't mind working a bit to have something work out... it just has to be the right kind of work.

Main point: Can we make a list of medium-sized rotary CC tubas? I'm trying to make a list of options that are around the size of a Miraphone 188 (or a little bit larger), but definitely not "5/4" (and smaller than the WIllson 3050-RZ).

For the purposes of this list:
1) Nothing Chinese
2) Slight preference to current-production models
3) Not against the idea of purchasing brand-new
4) Budget: ideally ~$15k or less
5) Nothing B&S, Cerveny, or Yamaha (personal preference)

Here's my list of candidates so far, and clarifications of things not on the list:

• Miraphone 188 (no 186's)
• MIraphone Bruckner (might be too big?)
• Meinl Weston 32 (no 35/37 Bill Bell models)
• Rudy Meinl 4/4 (about as big as I'd want to go, and not interested in the 3/4)
• Rudy Meinl 4345
• Alexander 173
• Hirsbrunner HB2
• Gronitz PCM (maybe they can make a rotary version?)
• Willson 4400 (maybe they can make a rotary version?)

That's all I can think of for now. Seems like a short list, so maybe I'm missing a few things... Also, some of these tubas are things that I've never seen or played in person, and they might not be the correct size, so I would appreciate any input on that. Kind of a wide range between common and custom instruments.

Any thoughts? THANKS!

[Billy M.]

4) Budget: ideally ~$15k or less
5) Nothing B&S, Cerveny, or Yamaha (personal preference)

So Thein is out of the question...

Have you had opportunity to play Yamaha's 861? I've heard really good things about it, especially that it's a much more colorful and characterful sounding instrument than the 822 CC.

[bort]

Ya know, I nearly specified that my budget is "less than Thein." Regarding the Yamaha, I'd try one if I got the opportunity, but I really think I want something German or Swiss (doesn't have to make sense, but it is what it is). Thanks for the suggestion though.

[bisontuba]

Keep an eye out for a vintage 1960's 186.....

[Peach]

Adams do a large 4/4.
Never played one but should be nice

[iiipopes]

Besson 995 and the Nirschl equivalent from which it was derived.
The Conn 5XJ series tubas
M/W 32
Kalison (don't remember the model designation)
The Daniel Kuntz prototype with offset rotary valves (may be outside the budget)
Oh, I don't want to take all the fun...next?

[toakstertuba]

Get a Rudy! Though my 4/4 felt and played like a (and was big as a) 5/4... and I've heard the 3/4 is more like other 4/4's. To me you can't beat that Rudy sound...

[Peach]

Besson 995 and the Nirschl equivalent from which it was derived.
The Conn 5XJ series tubas
M/W 32
Kalison (don't remember the model designation)
The Daniel Kuntz prototype with offset rotary valves (may be outside the budget)
Oh, I don't want to take all the fun...next?

He wants rotors though

[bort]

Thanks for the suggestions!

I used to have a Rudy 4/4, but sold it because 1) I was convinced I wanted something bigger and 2) it just didn't have the "fire" (as Lee Stofer put it) that the Rudy 3/4 has. I probably should have kept the Rudy and made some modifications. Lee told me that replacing the leadpipe and the main tuning slide assembly would likely help.

Sorry Mark, I'm just not a fan of the Piggy. Among other things, the bell is just way too close to my head. Cerveny in general is "okay" to me, but having owned one and tried a bunch of others, the experience was always "it's okay."

[Mark Horne]

Can't imagine why you wouldn't have an Alexander 163 CC on your list. It's overall size is 4/4 - the Cronkhite gig bag is the same one used for the Miraphone 186. Only its bore (.808) and sound potential is more like 5/4. It takes everything that I liked about the 188 to a higher level (even the intonation is fairly comparable). It does not suffer the same tightness in the very low range as a 188, although a Neptune (which I know you've owned in the past) is a bit more open on the low D and Db. When I was originally looking to buy a new tuba 5 years ago I bought a Miraphone Bruckner. After a few weeks of rehearsals I decided that it didn't have the sound I wanted and paid the extra 3-4 grand to get the Alexander. I have never regretted that decision.

Alexanders are reputed to have certain special or "magical" qualities to their sound. I have found this to be true certainly of their french horns and tubas and I am a big fan.

[bort]

I have to plead ignorance on this -- I guess I thought it was too much larger. Thinking back to the last time I played one, I think you're right, in stature, it's more compact than I remember.

Honestly, every time I talk about this stuff, it seems like Alex players tell me "hey dummy, get an Alex!" Thanks for the suggestion though. My only concern might be that people say they require a bit of upkeep -- when you stay on top of it, it's awesome. And when you put it away for a while, it takes a bit of time to get back up to speed. Do you find that as well?

I will say, the older Alex tubas are really quite beautiful, and match my definition of "tuba." The new Alex tubas are even better looking.

Thanks Mark!

[iiipopes]

Besson 995 and the Nirschl equivalent from which it was derived.
The Conn 5XJ series tubas
M/W 32
Kalison (don't remember the model designation)
The Daniel Kuntz prototype with offset rotary valves (may be outside the budget)
Oh, I don't want to take all the fun...next?

He wants rotors though

Two of the five listed are rotary.

[MartyNeilan]

Out of curiosity, why are the Bell models excluded? I have always loved the sound coming out of them, although I admittedly have never been the driver of one.

[bort]

Out of curiosity, why are the Bell models excluded? I have always loved the sound coming out of them, although I admittedly have never been the driver of one.

I've tried a few of them over the years, and yes, they are good tubas. But for whatever reason, just not what I preferred, and I could easily sit them back down without a single thought of wanting to buy them. Probably similar to why B&S tubas aren't on my list, not because they are bad, they just didn't make it past that first cut.

Or, I'm becoming a tuba snob, and they just aren't fancy enough.

[michael_glenn]

I find the Bruckner to be a similar size to the HB-2. They are more of a compact 5/4 or very large 4/4 depending on what you want to call it. The HB-2 can be a real workhorse and can SOUND like a big tuba if you want it to. Definitely bigger than a 188. As for others, there's the PT-20. I've heard a couple guys in the area play on them, and they sound pretty darn good.

[ginnboonmiller]

Thanks for the suggestions!

I used to have a Rudy 4/4, but sold it because 1) I was convinced I wanted something bigger and 2) it just didn't have the "fire" (as Lee Stofer put it) that the Rudy 3/4 has. I probably should have kept the Rudy and made some modifications. Lee told me that replacing the leadpipe and the main tuning slide assembly would likely help.

Sorry Mark, I'm just not a fan of the Piggy. Among other things, the bell is just way too close to my head. Cerveny in general is "okay" to me, but having owned one and tried a bunch of others, the experience was always "it's okay."

I'm confused and curious about your explanation --
You want a 4/4 that sounds as good as a 3/4 but you don't want a 3/4?

Have you tried many 3/4 Rudys? There are good ones and bad ones out there.

[cambrook]

Everyone is going to suggest tubas that they themselves like, and of course I'm no exception....

Having said that, I REALLY like my new RM 4345R. It ticks all the boxes for me

[cjk]

Ask your teacher

[PaulMaybery]

My take: FWIW. Keep the CC and get an F for your smaller horn. I love having both.
Lots to choose from, both new and vintage.

[bort]

I'm confused and curious about your explanation --
You want a 4/4 that sounds as good as a 3/4 but you don't want a 3/4?

Have you tried many 3/4 Rudys? There are good ones and bad ones out there.

Specifically with Rudys, the 3/4 that I used one summer was just about the most responsive, zippy, and colorful tuba that I've ever played. The other few 3/4 Rudys that I had tried were equally as awesome.

My 4/4 Rudy, which I play tested side by side with the 3/4 was still a quality instrument, but nowhere near what the 3/4 was. Even after Matt Walters did his magic to it, it was just that the design of the tuba, in whatever way, made the 3/4 better than the 4/4.

The 3/4, even though large by any other makers standards, was (and still is) smaller than what I would prefer to use on a daily basis. What would have been ideal is a Rudy 4/4 that sounds like a 4/4, but responds, plays, and sounds like the 3/4, but scaled up by a click. In short, I found out for myself what other people have said here -- the 3/4 is just a better horn.