Medium sized rotary CC tubas (and a realization)

[bort]

Thanks everyone, too much to reply to individually, but I appreciate the input.

One clarification: I'm just making the list right now. Of course I'll listen to what people have to say, but I'll make my own choices. Just making sure I'm not forgetting anything obvious.

[oedipoes]

Everyone is going to suggest tubas that they themselves like, and of course I'm no exception....

Having said that, I REALLY like my new RM 4345R. It ticks all the boxes for me

Cam, you seem to be really into Rudi these days... you have a Rudi F as well if I remember correctly?
(I can imagine why you like Rudi tubas, enjoying my 4/4 BB every time I play it)
How big is the 4345R relative to other tubas?
About HB-2 size, bigger or smaller?

thx

[cambrook]

The body looks pretty much like a HB-2, perhaps a bit smaller. I'll post some photos when my student brings his HB-2P over.

I think it plays like a Rudy 3.5/4, it's as easy to play as the 3/4 and has similar clarity but with a bit richer sound. I think it has the best aspects of both instruments - and it has wonderful intonation.

When I first picked it up I was concerned that I couldn't easily reach the 1st slide while playing - but I soon realised that I have absolutely no need to. I use the 2nd slide kicker for the E and Eb below the stave (and of course the 2+4 C# and F#) but apart from that I don't make any adjustments.

Rudy doesn't rest on his laurels, the improvement in intonation and consistency of response with his newer tubas is significant. That isn't to imply that the older Rudy Meinls aren't great tubas - many of them are absolutely wonderful.

I've read some comments that the RM 5/4 C isn't the easiest tuba to play, and when I think back to the early 90's one that I used to have there were a couple of notes that needed "looking after" - the Ab at the top of the stave was not comfortable for a FF accented entry . Everything else was good and I loved the sound.
Those issues don't exist with the newer RM tubas - it's a joy to have an easy-to-play instrument that also has the wonderful Rudy sound.

[Sharp]

I will take a picture of my HB2 beside a Rudy 4/4 this evening if that's what you're after.

Both fun to play, and the Rudy is less work*... but the Hirsbrunner will always win for me.

*my ax needs some work done, not a really fair comparison.

[toakstertuba]

I'm confused and curious about your explanation --
You want a 4/4 that sounds as good as a 3/4 but you don't want a 3/4?

Have you tried many 3/4 Rudys? There are good ones and bad ones out there.

Specifically with Rudys, the 3/4 that I used one summer was just about the most responsive, zippy, and colorful tuba that I've ever played. The other few 3/4 Rudys that I had tried were equally as awesome.

My 4/4 Rudy, which I play tested side by side with the 3/4 was still a quality instrument, but nowhere near what the 3/4 was. Even after Matt Walters did his magic to it, it was just that the design of the tuba, in whatever way, made the 3/4 better than the 4/4.

The 3/4, even though large by any other makers standards, was (and still is) smaller than what I would prefer to use on a daily basis. What would have been ideal is a Rudy 4/4 that sounds like a 4/4, but responds, plays, and sounds like the 3/4, but scaled up by a click. In short, I found out for myself what other people have said here -- the 3/4 is just a better horn.

Out of curiosity, was your 4/4 a 5 valve? I had a 70's 4 valve 4/4 Rudy that I thought was a superior horn over my buddy's 3/4 5 valve, though his horn was great also.

[iiipopes]

Speaking of Rudy tubas, there is a model that doesn't get much press anymore, although it made a medium splash at one time: the 4345. A more compact model that unfortunately did not get all the love it probably deserved. Because of that, there are only single-digit numbers of the rotary version in the USA, according to the thread link below. Some found it great to play; others found it a little stuffy. To that, I would say anything is stuffy compared to an 45cm bell Rudy. But, it is a rotor CC, and if a player could find one used, possibly in the OP's ballpark. The piston valve versions are much more common, and are still listed on the Rudy website. Here is the link. Scroll down for its description by Lee Stofer:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=63299" target="_blank

[bort]

Toaster -- both the 3/4 and 4/4 had 5 valves.

iiipopes -- the 4345 is what cambrook is talking about, and also the Rudy model that I would first want to consider. Not many around, but Lee confirmed last week that they can still be ordered from Rudy. Everything from Rudy Meinl is a special order, so ordering a rotary 4345 is just another special order.

Thank you all for your help!

[arpthark]

To Brett or those who know, two questions:

1. Why are you ruling out the 186 in favor of the 188?

2. How does the Rudy 3/4 compare in size to, say, a Miraphone 186? I haven't been able to find any good pictures online that show how large the 3/4 Rudy is.

I ask because I am in the market for a "medium rotary CC." I would definitely put the 186 in that discussion, personally.

Blake

[bort]

I think the 186 just breaks up too quickly. I do like them, but for me, they are not quite ideal. One in particular that I loved was a brand new gold brass 4-valve 186. Holy crap, it was like the tuba equivalent of a sports car. It was small, and to me, not practical to use for everything... But what a fun tuba. I can consider a 186 again, but really think that if I went in that direction, I would end up with a 188 again. And that sure wouldn't be a bad thing.

The Rudy 3/4, to me, is like a 186 in size, but more colorful sound and you can't easily make the sound crack up.

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Are you sure that all 6/4 tubas are not for you?

Years ago, I tried a WIllson 3050, and found it to be an unsatisfying horn to play.

However, I have subsequently played many 6/4s that I LIKE! : )

[jeopardymaster]

Something else to think about is how much leadpipe you have in front of the valve block - a shorter trip to the valves can make a horn feel smaller and play bigger. Case in point would be the Marzan horns. Even at a bore of around .750 they can play pretty big, but have always felt extremely manageable to me. I'm not sure what other rotary horns have this feature - lots of piston horns do, of course. The Marzan slant 4 (or 5) rotary horn is kind of a funky design, but having the main tuning slide so accessible is a plus.

[bort]

Are you sure that all 6/4 tubas are not for you?

Years ago, I tried a WIllson 3050, and found it to be an unsatisfying horn to play.

However, I have subsequently played many 6/4s that I LIKE! : )

Yeah, I'm pretty sure that 6/4 tubas, or at least the one I owned and the many I've tried, are wrong for me. They sound great and are fun as hell to play, but they just don't song sound like what i want to sound like.

[southtubist]

Honestly, every time I talk about this stuff, it seems like Alex players tell me "hey dummy, get an Alex!" Thanks for the suggestion though. My only concern might be that people say they require a bit of upkeep -- when you stay on top of it, it's awesome. And when you put it away for a while, it takes a bit of time to get back up to speed. Do you find that as well?

I will say, the older Alex tubas are really quite beautiful, and match my definition of "tuba." The new Alex tubas are even better looking.

Thanks Mark!

I dunno, I really like an Alex. It took me a bit to master the fingerings, but everything else is easier than on any other tuba I've played. Alex horns vary a bit, so ymmv. I hear that the newer ones are better in that regard. Also, to me, my Alex seems to behave like a 5/4 with fast response. Doesn't "feel" medium to me, but that's pretty subjective. I don't practice much anymore and after a few minutes it seems to come back, I think. I might just suck and my ego is preventing me from seeing that. Either way, I'm pretty sure I'm about the only young dude out there with an Alex.

[iiipopes]

I think the 186 just breaks up too quickly.

It is my opinion that the reason the 186 breaks up too quickly is the change from the 16 1/2 inch "stovepipe" or "point-and-shoot" bell to the current 17 3/4 "vanilla" bell. They took the character out of the tone, and it just simply does not match the horn. I have played both, along with the bell-front and an after market St. Pete straight detachable tailored to fit. I liked none of them, hence putting the Besson 17-inch bell on it. Now the tuba does not break up at all under any circumstances.

Miraphone need to reengineer the bell again and redevelop their own personality, instead of trying to be a generic American bell with rotors instead of pistons.

[oedipoes]

The body looks pretty much like a HB-2, perhaps a bit smaller. I'll post some photos when my student brings his HB-2P over.

Yes, please!

[bisontuba]

I think the 186 just breaks up too quickly.

It is my opinion that the reason the 186 breaks up too quickly is the change from the 16 1/2 inch "stovepipe" or "point-and-shoot" bell to the current 17 3/4 "vanilla" bell. They took the character out of the tone, and it just simply does not match the horn. I have played both, along with the bell-front and an after market St. Pete straight detachable tailored to fit. I liked none of them, hence putting the Besson 17-inch bell on it. Now the tuba does not break up at all under any circumstances.

Miraphone need to reengineer the bell again and redevelop their own personality, instead of trying to be a generic American bell with rotors instead of pistons.

Old classic 4v 186 CC Mirafones 1965 and before......nothing like them....
BUT here is a 5v from '66:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mirafone-186-5U ... Sw-CpXHmug" target="_blank

[roweenie]

#6

[Billy M.]

New ones (actually built as CC tubas, and not as shortcutted BBb's) play remarkably well in tune (with the sound that Alex-lovers love), but their pricing may be a bit stiff for many youngsters' parents.

Or just many youngsters. Believe me, I'd love to get my hands on a new Alex. The sound those horns produce represent the epitome of "the tuba sound" to me. Oh if I could just win the lottery without having to play it.

[bort]

New ones (actually built as CC tubas, and not as shortcutted BBb's) play remarkably well in tune (with the sound that Alex-lovers love), but their pricing may be a bit stiff for many youngsters' parents.

Last time I checked, it really wasn't much different than any other new tuba. Even a new Miraphone 188 is over $10k now.

[cambrook]

As promised, here's a photo of a HB2P next to my RM4345R. The HB2P is a little bigger in the bottom bow. The angle of the camera is slightly deceptive - the 4345 is just a bit taller. The HB might have a slightly broader sound, but not by much - the RM has more core, and the fabulous Rudy Meinl sound - and it's super easy to play