Eb not EEb f not ff?

[Woods]

Okay random question. I know why we call BBb tubas BBb and not Bb and the same for CC but why don't we do this for Eb and f tubas?

[DonShirer]

Nnobody kknows. Iit's jjust ttraditional!

Ddon (fighting a losing battle with autocorrect) Sshirer

[toobagrowl]

In short: double-C (CC) and double-Bb (BBb) are contrabass tubas, where Eb and F are bass tubas. So --> BBb and CC contrabass tubas; Eb and F bass tubas. Seems sensible, works for me.

[bort]

Calling Ian Church...!

[cambrook]

I haven't been involved in the brass band scene here in Australia for many years, but it used to be that 3V tubas were known as Eb tubas, while 4V were known as EEb.

Funny thing was that all the Boosey BBb tubas were 3V in those days, but I guess they had to be called BBb cos they're bigger than the EEbs?

[PaulMaybery]

For you history nuts out there:
There are other anomalies in brass instrument terminology. Most have to do with either regional/national differences or the type of ensemble.

For instance. The Bb Tenor horn (known as such in Germany and on the continent) is in the UK called a Bb Baritone.

The term Baryton or Baritone in Germanic countries is basically the euphonium. And in orchestras termed a Tenor Tuba.

Likewise the Eb Alto on the continent is in the UK referred to as an Eb Tenor.

There was once an instrument, the Bb Bass saxhorn (9 ft Bb) which has assumed the role of the euphonium.
In France it was called Saxhorn basse in Si Bemol and was used as the tuba in the French orchestras. Sometimes called the French tuba. It also had a counterpart pitched in C.

While in the UK and specifically the military band literature, the term baritone is relegated to an instrument almost the size of the euphonium. Old catalogs from Boose bear this out. So even though you are in Britain there has been two instruments with the same name. Yes, confusing.

Stemming from the old mid 19th century times, instrumental parts in the score and printed parts were often labelled by their corresponding voice, hence Eb Soprano, Bb Tenor, Eb Bass etc. This has its roots with the saxhorn family of brasses and in the US was used pretty much through the entire 19th century and well into the 20th. Eventually publishers began using the actual name of the instrument, rather than it's voice classification. So, the Eb Bass became Tuba, The baritone became the euphonium, the tenors became trombone and the altos became horns. The history of instrumental terminology is quite fascinating and has reasons for why things were a certain way. But what is important to remember is that one can not really freeze a moment in time and say "That's the way it was." Things were always in flux, but not necessarily in sync around the various countries and geograhic regions. Trends developed in the urban areas with the professional musicians and slowly moved to the frontier, often taking decades to effect change.

One more gem of trivia. In the old (All) brass bands of mid-19th century America, the Bb Bass was the customary octave doubling of the bass line. It was usually written along with the Eb bass. Several treatises from the time spoke of that instrument as really being somewhat of a 'Weak horse." Many brass bands from that time discarded it and replaced the Bb and Eb Basses with 2 Eb basses. If the stars lined up properly, one would be a small Eb tuba the other a larger Eb, often playing in octaves. Eventually in the 1880s the BBb tuba came along, and by then the whole scheme of instrumentation was at a crossroads and the modern concert band began to emerge. And that is not something that can be summed up in a paragraph.

[Donn]

I'm willing to be corrected here...

Good, but it won't be about why not FF or EEb - you're quite right there. The only objection is with

"CC" and "BBb" refer to the FUNDAMENTAL (lowest frequency with no valves down) pitches achievable on those instruments.

... because, I'm sorry to say, by the same logic, only BBb gets the double letter, and the C tuba alas is in the same octave as the Bb euphonium, albeit at the low end while the euphonium is at the high end.

We're talking about the English multiple C notation variation on Helmholtz pitch notation.

This may be why German orchestra players are said to prefer the BBb contrabass. With the intellectual rigor for which they're known, they probably assume that the CC tuba would be some sort of useless sub-contrabass monstrosity.

[Woods]

Wow I'm kind of confused lol

[Donn]

Yes, lowest note in the octave is C, whether it's Helmholtz pitch notation C,, Scientific pitch notation C1, or the English double C notation.

[Ulli]

This would also mean that "FF" is a misnomer, obviously.

I'm willing to be corrected here...

Mh-? I reach with my F Tuba F1 as lowest frequency with no valves down. That is in contra position.

Is it a contrabass tuba? Is it a FF?

[timothy42b]

Yes, lowest note in the octave is C, whether it's Helmholtz pitch notation C,, Scientific pitch notation C1, or the English double C notation.

Yes. The octave changes at C, not at A which would be logical.
This has caused me no end of confusion. Even after years of directing handbell choirs it drives me nuts. I assign bells to different ringers to fit the music. I have to remember that B5 is NOT a half step lower than C5, it is almost an octave higher.

I typically expect a ringer to have the lower bell in the left hand and the higher in the right. This week I noticed one of my younger ringers had it reversed, but was ringing the right notes. She had A in the left hand and G in the right. Why did she do it? She went alphabetically.

[peter birch]

the answer to this is probably lost in the mists of time, but I wondered about the double bass in the orchestra and what made it double? the answer seems to be that it doubles the bass line an octave lower than the cellos, and maybe this is the origin of double Bs, double Es and and double Cs in brass

[Donn]

You seem to be saying that you don't talk about this issue with kids. Probably just as well.

[timothy42b]

When a french horn looks at a C and plays a C, it sounds an F. It may be an over simplistic explanation, but it works.

No, that's a very confusing distinction to a kid.

You simply explain that instruments have a fundamental pitch, and sheet music comes in different flavors.

A Bb French horn will still play F music in a high school band. A Bb trombone will play C music while a Bb trumpet will play Bb music. (some exceptions but basically the case) An Eb alto trombone will play C music, sometimes in various clefs, but still always C music. A bass trombone pitched in Bb/F/D/Gb will play C music, except sometimes in one of those British brass bands where they may have Eb music.

I've not yet found a kid who didn't understand that once explained properly.

[Donn]

You simply explain that instruments have a fundamental pitch

Some instruments can be said to have a fundamental pitch, but it isn't an inherent, obvious or important property of musical instruments in general. Why is an alto sax Eb, when its lowest pitch is concert Db? What's the fundamental pitch of a bassoon? Does it matter? What's the fundamental pitch of a piano? Why is it useful to characterize a tuba, as related above while we were still on the nominal subject of the thread, using a note that most players can't produce?

[Donn]

Woodwind (AND brass) instruments have many fundamental pitches, depending on how long the players make those instruments via hand manipulation.

This semantic dodge would also allow fundamental pitches for piano (88 of them) and for a violin (4), but it makes it a distinction without a distinction. Apparently all pitches are fundamental.

Most woodwind instruments' fundamental pitches (sans hand manipulation) are never used.
"Open" (on many woodwind instruments) is an illegitimate hand position.

And not obviously useful in terms of acoustic principles, since that fingering is close to but not at the top of the register, depending on the instrument (OK, it's at the top for the recorder and flute, half step from the top on sax, maybe minor third on a clarinet I forget, way far from the top on a bassoon. Hope I remember all that right.)

Woodwind instruments just

• have a conventional fingering pattern more or less in common,
• the flute is by convention the "C" woodwind, and
• the clarinet by convention relates to the flute in its second register. (A Bb clarinet's low register would be Eb, related to the flute.)
• The bassoon has departed enough from that conventional fingering pattern that while it's apparently "F" if you look close, no one cares.

"Simply explain" that!

Returning to the topic, woodwinds are not referred to with octave notation names. Contrabass clarinet is the only example I know of - I think any use of "BBb contrabass clarinet" should be be held up to ridicule but it happens here and there. No one is confused when it's usually called Bb contrabass clarinet. As no one would be confused if I called my Holton a Bb tuba.