Adding 5th valve to Helicon

[bstevens]

Hi!

I've just purchased an old Cerveny F helicon. I'm a big helicon fan and been playing an Amati F for years as a main horn (which I'll sell soon after some servicing) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tnFOKQ4Dsg" target="_blank

So my question is - for the Cerveny, which plays really well with lovely tone - is it worth putting on a 5th valve to sort out the lower intonation? Helicons with 5 valves are unheard of of course, but I'm happy to be the first. Any thoughts on normal cost (obviously I'll get a local quote too), and also which "kind" of 5th valve?

Thanks in advance,
Bruce

[pjv]

Out of curiosity, where on the helicon did you want to have it installed?

[bstevens]

Out of curiosity, where on the helicon did you want to have it installed?

Not quite sure ... I guess either a left handed trigger would be fine, or install a thumb ring and have it operated on the right hand. I'm guessing the left handed trigger might actually be a little more comfortable. I suspect it'll all be too expensive - a whole new valve set with more modern valves would probably be a better investment, but we'll see!

[pjv]

Actually what I meant was have you had a tech measure (or measured yourself) if there is a cylindrical section before or after the valves? I may be wrong but I assume valve de cannot be placed on conical tubes.

[bstevens]

Actually what I meant was have you had a tech measure (or measured yourself) if there is a cylindrical section before or after the valves? I may be wrong but I assume valve de cannot be placed on conical tubes.

Oh, I see. Yes, not sure yet - I'll have to check with a tech person and see. Might be too ambitious!

[pjv]

Where there's a will there's a way.
If all else fails you can always have a dependent 5th attached to the 4th valve slide. Personally this wouldn't be my first option but maybe my last.
In this case you might also want do do your research as to what most profitable length for a dependent 5th might be. It might even be to your advantage to have the 4th cut or lengthened. I've never really looked into it.
Succes.

[PaulTkachenko]

Pretty confident you can put it before the first valve. Voigt will make it all up for you, but it's all money.

An issue you might (probably will) have is that your new valve will stick out too far. If you were starting from scratch your whole valve set would be further to your right as you hold the instrument, which would have a knock on effect with where your paddles are located etc. All totally possible, but it's potentially much more work.

Is your Bb working OK with 124? That's obviously a very handy note if you're playing jazz. Low G and F#, obviously less essential - you might get those more intune with a kicker on 4, for instance (which you'd need to extend probably).

[bstevens]

Is your Bb working OK with 124? That's obviously a very handy note if you're playing jazz. Low G and F#, obviously less essential - you might get those more intune with a kicker on 4, for instance (which you'd need to extend probably).

Thanks Paul. Bb is workable with 124, albeit a little stuffy. It's a small Euro shank so I guess getting the exact right fit for the horn will help with notes slotting in. But yes - the lower F# is near impossible to get to. It has a slightly bigger bell than the Amati F Helicons, which means more depth of sound and tone (really nice tone) and that it's more versatile for playing basslines in a trio etc. Hence the idea for the 5th, but yeah, does sound like more trouble than it's worth for now.

[Donn]

It has a slightly bigger bell than the Amati F Helicons

Interesting, I always just assumed they were just the same thing minus the clock spring valves. The way I remember it, the Amati was a pretty big F as it was - reasonably big bore and solid through its range, with a good punchy tone. I thought not as sweet sounding as some bass tubas can be in the mid to upper range; maybe that's not much called for in a helicon anyway, but a slight bell enlargement might help there. Mine was a little battered, to be fair.

[ndh3425]

seems like an interesting project. post pics during the overhaul

[justinhaynes]

bstephens - I also want a helicon with 5 or even 6 valves if possible. Not for the sake of having a unicorn, but for practical reasons like the ones you mention. I have not been able to find one. I'm not convinced one exists anywhere, actually. Becuase why would it? Eb and F horns are more rare anyway for various reasons. More than 3 valves on any marching horn is rare. Marching horns in Eb and F are very rare, so to find a marching horn in Eb or F with 5 or 6 valves is probably not happening.

Now, I don't actually have an F helicon, period. But I borrowed an Eb Alexander from a good friend to try out with The If Onlys (WARNING, unprofessional tuba playing ahead!: https://theifonlys.bandcamp.com/releases" target="_blank ). Every song with a tuba on that album is with my BBb Miraphone, except for one or two where I played the Eb and some Oval Tenor horns.

Clearly there is some demand for this, because there are two of us. But, let me play devil's advocate for a moment - why exactly should there be 5 and 6 valve F Helicons in the world? And why not play a BBb helicon? If you want to play in low registers with good intonation, that would be one solution. You can still play almost as high on a BBb helicon as you could on an F...

For me, it is about only one thing - having the right tool for the job. But I'll break it down:

1. ensemble size - I like playing with my friends. Sometimes they sing and play quiet acoustic string instruments. Balancing to that is a pain on a large horn. Especially if I only play (when I am playing.. I'm not right now) 3 hours a week. I'm not going to be able to pick up my BBb and play full sounds at ppp.

2. Sound Quality - And this can probably be more specific to the horn, but I really love the idea of being able to push a BBb or GG or CCC and get something between a tuba and a bass trombone.

3. Intonation AND accuracy: I *really* like the idea of upper registers being better in tune and with notes being easier to nail reliably. I also *really* like having enough valves to do the same in low registers.

4. Agility / Flexibility: If I want to play something fast, I'd like it to be a little more effortless. A little less muddy.

5. Convenience: Hauling a BBb sousaphone is inconvenient and heavy on a stage. A concert horn is also more inconvenient on a stage.

6. Security (kind of). BBb Sousaphones are more likely to walk off, maybe partially because of their popularity in Banda music in Texas. (Just like guitars and Bass guitars are more likely to walk off than tubas in general). If this horn turns up, it will stand out.

As for F Helicons in general, it is encouaging that Cerveny is making new ones. (CHL 621-4 http://www.vfcerveny.cz/en/rotary-valve ... chl-621-4p" target="_blank ).

[imperialbari]

Alternative approach:

Get at least the 1st & 4th rotors vented. Get their slides well aligned and honed just enough for easy movement. Add triggers for these 2 slides and place the levers so they are easily operated by the left hand.

B natural 24+ (where + is an adequate trigger adjustment)
Bb 14+
A 124+
Ab 134+
G 1234+
Gb 1234 plus full length trigging of 1st as well as 4th)

The triggers even will give you access to some funny pitch effects all over the range.

Klaus

[justinhaynes]

Klaus, this sounds like a good idea. With a tuba in F, the slides won't have to move as far as they would to make the difference as they would on a BBb. I'll consider this as I look at pictures of horns for sale to think about how that would feel, and how the modifications would be made.

[imperialbari]

I wouldn’t recommend the trigger idea for a 4 valve F tuba intended for orchestral, chamber, or solo repertories.

There a 5 or 6 valve tuba with some trigger facilities would be easier to handle. Or as in my case a compensating 3+1P F tuba with a trigger facility (mine hasn’t a trigger yet - a vented 3rd piston and a 3rd slide trigger likely would be most realistic).

The trigger suggestion might be the better solution for the OP, who has the 4 valve helicon already. As I get him he wants access to all notes, but not necessarily to play fast passages right above the open pedal note. He already has the range to play fast unisonos with the baritone saxophone.

Klaus

[justinhaynes]

BTW, great example of the kinds of sounds I'd love to be able make on such a horn from the original poster, bstephens:

http://theswingninjas.co.uk/quartet-quintet" target="_blank

That video has great work throughout from everyone, but listen at 1:30 to the Helicon solo. I love how the horn sounds in that part of the range. Normal range for a BBb or CC, and it sounds natural here too - but I really the quality of the sound from the F Helicon.

Now with intonation problems solved *below* that range, that effect could be extended - that's where I'd be looking for some fun edgy sounds.