BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

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tubasaz
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Re: BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

Post by tubasaz »

Hmmm.. maybe I have not spesific ideas to your problem but...
My Leningrad BBb is equipped with a small tuba shank receiver and I use Denis Wick Nr 3 mouthpiece.
It is nicely in tune A=440Hz letting still some adjustment for main tuning slide.
Maybe there are some variations between different tubas (units) ?
BTW: The valves are awful - but their work when valve caps are completely loose...
But I love the basic sound of my Lgrad.
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Re: BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

Post by Tabor »

I would check it for a leak, and if there aren't any leaks, give it a haircut & a shave.
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Re: BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

Post by Rick Denney »

How deeply is the mouthpiece inserting into the receiver?

How big is the mouthpiece compared to what you are used to?

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Re: BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

Post by PaulMaybery »

Back in the 60s, eastern european stencil horns were being imported and offered at fairly low prices. Our college bought three of them over several years. They were all made to low pitch, which I understand was popular in eastern europe. The only solution we could find was the hack saw. About an inch and a half to the MTS. These were no name horns, but similar to those with the Karl Zeiss and Kroner name on the bell. BTW the valves were poorly machined and never stopped sticking. It would not surprise me if your St. Pete came from a batch that had the lower tuning. In which case cutting the main would be the simplest solution. Depending on things, you may or may not need to trim the other slides. We did not.

IMHO - dinging with mouthpieces - while it does have some effect - really does not address the issues of why the horn plays flat. Certainly the point of insertion effects the lenght of the horn and may make up 5 cents or so. If that corrects things, fine. But if the tuba was initially a low pitch instrument, you have some serious adjustment to make.
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Re: BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

Post by tubasaz »

PaulMaybery wrote:Back in the 60s, eastern european stencil horns ... .... They were all made to low pitch, which I understand was popular in eastern europe. The only solution we could find was the hack saw. About an inch and a half to the MTS. .... It would not surprise me if your St. Pete came from a batch that had the lower tuning. In which case cutting the main would be the simplest solution. Depending on things, you may or may not need to trim the other slides. We did not.
.... if the tuba was initially a low pitch instrument, you have some serious adjustment to make.
I will check my Russian tubas tuning on Friday. I will compare it to some other tubas (and a tuner of course). I just remembered that I have a Huller tenor sax (!) from about 1940s which tuning is A=435 Hz. If the difference is 5 Hz then cutting some 1.5 inches (3 inches total) would make sense.

---------

CHECKED: I made pitch checking today and my Lgrad BBb tuba plays nicely in tune A=440Hz. I could easily bend notes (just by lips) a half step (i.e. to AA -tuning) but sound quality changed radically and was ugly and bad. Upwards I could bend however just about quarter step; so I might have a little pitch-miss-aligned chops with my lips (?) but it has been years years such...

SO: Might be good to check if really your instrument is manufactured "low-pitch" which I suppose means in this case something like A=435Hz (heh, or a1 depending how notes are noted in different octaves...). Possibly try to bend notes and compare results with some other tuba (which tuning has been checked and confirmed) and preferably also with an experienced fellow player. (trying to measure the actual length of tubing might be not a good idea).

BTW: Is the problem instrument in question 4-valve ? Mine is 3-valve. :tuba: :tuba: :tuba:
Last edited by tubasaz on Thu May 12, 2016 9:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

Post by Jose the tuba player »

.
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Re: BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

Post by tubasaz »

Is the problem instrument in question 4-valve ? Mine is 3-valve. :tuba: :tuba: :tuba:
Just a some idea... (which probably is not valid in any way): if 4 valves then total tube length is some 50mm longer than with 3-valve tuba (crazy idea; tuba manufacture just added tubing but did not change other dimensions....) :oops:
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Re: BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

Post by tubasaz »

My BBb Leningrad Tuba. Seems that yours have a different design.

Bell Diameter is 40 cm. How big is yours ? :D
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Re: BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

Post by PaulMaybery »

I just took a close look at some of my shallow mouthpieces. Some folks seem to think deeper or shallow mps have an effect on pitch. Perhaps the volume has something to do with it. But when you stop to take some measurements, the shallow mp often uses the same blank as a deeper one and in many cases, the throat on the shallow one sits close to a quarter of an inch out further than the deeper cup. (of course a euroshank will have a different insertion poin than a standard American shank. The question I have of the accoustic experts, is ... (drum roll) from where is the overall length that effects the pitch measured: From the rim or the throat? I've often heard reference to even the throat of the player having some effect on the pitch. I recall in studying with Arnold Jacobs back in the 70's that the more he worked with me to open and relax my throat, the pitch began to drop.(But that is a bit more subtle - compared to a tuba that plays generally on the low side. It also may be that the tuning crook is simply mismatched to the horn. This is not all that uncommon with instruments that are newly produced and a protocol for quality control has not yet been cast in stone. Just more ideas. Murphy's law. If something can go wrong, it eventually will go wrong.
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Re: BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

Post by tubasaz »

Your really love your Russian tuba (right?)? And want to keep the horn (right?)?
There is Mr. Murphy always lurking but still some ideas:
1. Use a good tuner with has range like 410...480 Hz.
2. Check what is really your tubas tuning. (you might get something like 422Hz or 431Hz or 418 Hz or whatever it is...). Notice the position of the main slide (I recommend it press compeletely in when measuring).
3. If you get the real tuning to be like (say) 419 Hz (almost a half-step please check attached file taken from web) then you probably have a major tuning problem: compare the length of the 2nd slide which naturally drops a half-step. You get an idea how much shorter your tuba would like to be.

4. This "analysis" might very well contain - and very probably does - many errors. Please note them as needed.
tuning410480.jpg
:tuba:
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Re: BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

Post by Donn »

I'm sure there are plenty of Bach 18s - and similar, for example Blessing's copy has a pretty good reputation. But Blessing's copy is reportedly faithful to the published Bach throat dimension, which is relatively large at 8.84mm. Most other mouthpieces you could get would have a smaller throat; among 18 copies, Kelly's is reportedly 8.6mm. Mouthpieces sometimes vary from their published specifications.

Did Stas Cheremushkin give you any specific mouthpiece ideas? As I'm sure you know he's a very good player!
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Re: BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

Post by Donn »

Some discussion on that: Vincent Bach 18 and the relatives.

After reading that, hopefully you will be skeptical enough to read the
David Werden Mouthpiece chart. I doubt very much that you can identify the mouthpiece that will address this intonation problem from this chart, but maybe it's better than nothing.
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Re: BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

Post by tubasaz »

Anybody know what are dimensions of King 18 Tuba Mouthpiece ? I could not find any info anywhere.
It would be interesting to make pitch and intonation comparements between King 18 vs Bach 18 vs Bach 24AW vs Wick 3 with my Leningrad BBb tuba.
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Re: BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

Post by Donn »

TubaBum wrote:Looks like they are even more popular than some of the common custom ones you see on this website. I guess the simplest idea in mouthpiece technology is always the best.
Nah, all equally simple. A large part of the problem is that buyers have no reliable way to select the mouthpiece that will suit them best, so they tend to rely on word of mouth. That naturally tends to inflate the value of something like the Mt Vernon era Bachs, without doing a thing for highly available models that are apparently identical such as the Faxx line. For most people, while the mouthpiece makes a difference, once you get within the general ballpark it's really possible to do pretty well with whatever you have, so there's an element of self-fulfilling prophecy - you spend $250 for a mouthpiece and you're going to love it to death, and you'll go on to reinforce that word of mouth reputation.

In a situation like yours, the magic won't work, assuming your intonation really depends on actual specific physical parameters of the mouthpiece. Some Mt Vernon 18 online might have those parameters, but I don't think you know that for a fact, so without a chance to play it against that tuner, its value to you is not what it is to others.
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Re: BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

Post by Donn »

I bet a quarter the next one won't work. Faxx 18 is reportedly an especially consistent copy of one Mt Vernon; evidently it's different enough from the one you tried, and I think it follows that some or all Bachs will be different as well. Bachs have large throats, both the 18 and 24AW, so if you think that isn't good, pull out the mouthpiece chart and try something else.

It's interesting that the complaint has been, it plays flat - but you say the Faxx plays sharp? That's wild. I suppose you tried pulling the tuning slide out.
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Re: BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

Post by Donn »

the elephant wrote:So, did anyone ever figure out the actual problem this thread is supposed to be about
I'm not sure, did it seem to you that the problem still exists? It plays flat with a King 18 - and sharp with a Faxx 18? ... Might be a little early to start cutting.
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Re: BBb Leningrad plays Flat (ideas?)

Post by tubasaz »

Did I loose something? Some information modified / dismissed ? :?:
Original problem was (as I understood it) that a tuba was about 100 cent flat (minus one hundred) i.e. about 1/2 step flat.
There was a suspect that a mouthpiece has the effect and there were not a suitable mouthpiece(s) to test.
Suddenly two mouthpieces were found and then the tuba was about 10 cents sharp (approximate; some a little sharp anyway).
The problem was solved and everything is all right now and in a proper order.
Did this go like this? :?
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