Hoping for Helicon History Help!

[Dave Detwiler]

Do any of you history-buffs out there know:

1. What year this photo of Gilmore's Band was taken (it is supposedly at the St. Louis Exposition)?

2. What kind of horn the helicon-like instrument on the left is, where the small bell turns upward a bit? The big helicon on the right is almost certainly the one Herman Conrad played (and that might be Conrad holding that horn, depending on the date), but the smaller one is not one I've seen before.

Saint Louis Exposition.jpg

[bisontuba]

I'd say c. 1886-1892 for the image, and the odd helicon looks like rotary valves, so maybe some strange import of some kind...
Mark

[opus37]

If this picture is of the St. Louis Exposition, it is likely 1903 or 1904. Was Conrad in the Glimore Band or the Sousa Band in 1903 and 1904? 1904 was the Worlds Fair in St. Louis which was also called the Exposition.

[bisontuba]

If this picture is of the St. Louis Exposition, it is likely 1903 or 1904. Was Conrad in the Glimore Band or the Sousa Band in 1903 and 1904? 1904 was the Worlds Fair in St. Louis which was also called the Exposition.

Gilmore died in 1892... It is the Gilmore Band...
Mark

[roweenie]

Can we take a moment and admire the strange instruments besides the strange helicons... like the sarrusophone, bass saxophone, double bell rotary baritone/tenor/euphonium/alto-thing, and what looks to be a metal clarinet?

And that figure-eight instrument that Dillon Music had on their website.

Yes! I was noticing the same things... (especially the bass saxophone that only goes down to low B.... )

I think the "figure 8" instrument is called a "Schreiber horn".

One thing I've noticed from looking at Gilmore Band photographs is how progressive (considering the time period) he was in his instrumentation.

It seems as though Sousa (especially later on) went in somewhat an opposite direction in this regard, and as a result, gave us the standard instrumentation we have today. Maybe they were in the process of "figuring it all out".

(Or, one could say that Sousa learned from the experimentation of his predecessors on what to leave out....)

The fellow holding the helicon on the right is most certainly H.C. - he's holding the same horn in this Sousa Band photo from 1893, and he was one of the dozen or so Gilmore Band players included in the exodus to the Sousa Band after the death of Gilmore.

[Dave Detwiler]

I think the "figure 8" instrument is called a "Schreiber horn".

The fellow holding the helicon on the right is most certainly H.C. - he's holding the same horn in this Sousa Band photo from 1893, and he was one of the dozen or so Gilmore Band players included in the exodus to the Sousa Band after the death of Gilmore.

The "figure 8" instrument is actually called an Antoniophone.

And while I think you're right about that being Conrad in the photo, as that is the horn he played when he was with Gilmore, as well as Sousa (until the Sousaphone came along in 1895), that horn may have been in the Gilmore band prior to Conrad joining it. I shows up in the Lyon & Healy catalogue for 1880, as a Henry Gunckel of Paris BBb Bass "Monster" with "Celebrated French Piston Valves" - and it sold for $330 way back then!

1880 Henry Gunckel Basses.jpg

If the photo is dated between 1888 and 1892, then it's definitely Conrad. That's why I'm hoping someone knows the date!

[Donn]

Can we take a moment and admire the strange instruments besides the strange helicons... like the sarrusophone, bass saxophone, double bell rotary baritone/tenor/euphonium/alto-thing, and what looks to be a metal clarinet?

Honestly, to me that stuff seems old hat compared to the curved bell helicon. A curved bell on a bass or contrabass tuba, isn't that pretty unusual, maybe rather hard to do?

[roweenie]

Yes, upon closer inspection, you are correct, it is an Antoniophone - my tired eyes and a blurry photo are a bad combination....

[The Big Ben]

What about that horn on the bottom right in the front row? It looks like it has rotary valves and maybe an Eb/F or a single/double belled euphonium. I can't tell if what looks like a second bell is connected to the horn or to something that the player next to him is holding.

[roweenie]

I think that's Giuseppe Raffayolo with a rotary-valve double -bell euphonium....

[Dave Detwiler]

Last call - can anyone out there answer either of my two questions at the top of this post? Thanks!

[humBell]

Sorry for missing last call.

Don't have any significant contribution, other than to point out i am not actually sure the bell turns up on the left one.

I think it only seems to from the reflection off of it, but if you look closely, its outline has less of an apparent bend, and not much flare either.

Not much flare and having rotary valves, is consistent with my very limited exposure to european tubas of that era...

[Dave Detwiler]

For those interested, I received confirmation today that the photo was taken in 1889, so that is Conrad with the big helicon.