Mouthpiece wierdness

[Salazarsam33]

Hello fellow tubanetters,

I need home help from some of you who know of more about mouthpieces, their construct and how the different designs can affect and achieve the desired sound .

I recently purchased a wessex Luzerne and have had some issues with the I tonation. Bottom bow on the horn is HUGE witch give it the huge sound it produces, the lead pipe therefore is a bit smaller than what I'm use to so it is mouthpiece sensitive.

I'm use to playing on the Arnold Jacobs Canadian brass hellberg. Love that mouthpiece, but when I slapped it on the Luzerne everything was about 30 cents sharp. My profesor explained the whole small lead pipe deal and gave me a lot of different mouthpieces to try, all of them played sharp until I tried the PT 50.

I could lip down with the other mouthpieces but it feels highly uncomfortable to play, unlike with the pt50 that everything is spot on, but the articulations and clarity are much harder to clean up.

My friend let me try his Roger Bobo Symphony and the attacks are clean and clear, I feel better being able to feel such great response. It plays sharp however.

My question is why does the pt50 lower my intonation on the rotary Bb wessex that I own, and if there is a mouthpiece that can give me the clarity and attack I'm looking for, with the pt50 characteristics of helping bring down the pitch and fuller sound.

Anybody experience anything similar or have some input?

Many thanks
-Sam

[Doug Elliott]

Pay close attention to the intonation relative to the high, middle, and low range. Is it equally sharp all over, or different?

Measure carefully how far each mouthpiece goes into the receiver. I think you'll find that the PT50 doesn't go in as far as the others because the shank is a little bigger. When the overall length changes because of the way the mouthpiece fits, it will affect intonation some... not a lot, but some. A deeper cup may lower the pitch a little - again, some but not a lot.

The main tuning slide doesn't adjust far enough to get it in tune? With some Chinese instruments the legs on the tuning slide aren't long enough, or are too long. I know of one tuba that seemed to be assembled wrong, and the legs of one tuning slide had to be switched with another slide to be correct. I think that was a Mack Brass tuba. You should report the problem to Wessex.

[Salazarsam33]

The instrument is in tune with itself, the whole horn just seems a bit on the sharp side, it's not too bad but almost everyother tuba I pick up is flat or right on pitch.

I actually use a mouthpiece adaptor from wessex to fit different shank sizes and it lengths the distance enough to bring down he pitch about 10 cents. But most Co I called hellberg shaped mouthpieces play 30 cents sharp regardless.

[TheGoyWonder]

A freshman in community band had the Schiller version (maybe it's an unrelated made-in-china squat-design medium-large rotary BBb, but it looked just like it except 4 rotors). Everybody tried it and thought it was a joke, we tried to get her to return it. Super tight bore or leadpipe is what the problem felt like, and I was sure the bore was fine so the leadpipe is the questionable area.

But if you don't have euphonium-level backpressure, you don't have the full on version of this problem. Hoping they just give you a new tuning slide and everything works great.

[Michael Bush]

Another vote for it being the horn. The first tuba I bought when I came back to playing was the Schiller 4-valve version. The horn has an even scale, and sounds amazing (if you like that sound, as I do). It's just that some of them (all of them?) are built to A=443. I heard at one point that Jinbao had changed them to adjust the pitch down to 440, but perhaps not, or not all of them.

The previous owner of the one I had got a longer MTS made. You can pull the one it comes with and relax, and it can be played at 440, but getting another slide made may seem like a good solution as well.

On the whole though, I don't hate those horns at all. If you search around on here, you'll find comments and reviews that are overwhelmingly positive.

euphonium-level backpressure

This is not a problem with the model, so it's probably Jim Laabs's (non-existent?) quality control. That leadpipe needs attention from a tech. I bet there's a glob of solder (or something) in there.

[Ken Crawford]

Can't be the tuba. All Wessex tubas are checked, checked, and rechecked for perfection in all regards.

Must be you.

Yeah they rigorously inspect every instrument...They see the horrid solder work, they hear the gritty valves, see the slides that aren't aligned well and say, perfect! And if you question their quality control, you are obviously crazy.

[marccromme]

Can't be the tuba. All Wessex tubas are checked, checked, and rechecked for perfection in all regards.

Must be you.

Yeah they rigorously inspect every instrument...They see the horrid solder work, they hear the gritty valves, see the slides that aren't aligned well and say, perfect! And if you question their quality control, you are obviously crazy.

Sarcasm is a bad thing. Especially when it comes from people which obviously do not own any Wessex instrument or never have taken the time to thoroughly inspect and play one. And it does not help the original poster in any way with his problem either. So, please , cut the cheap smirks and get back to the issue at hand.

[Ken Crawford]

Can't be the tuba. All Wessex tubas are checked, checked, and rechecked for perfection in all regards.

Must be you.

Yeah they rigorously inspect every instrument...They see the horrid solder work, they hear the gritty valves, see the slides that aren't aligned well and say, perfect! And if you question their quality control, you are obviously crazy.

Sarcasm is a bad thing. Especially when it comes from people which obviously do not own any Wessex instrument or never have taken the time to thoroughly inspect and play one. And it does not help the original poster in any way with his problem either. So, please , cut the cheap smirks and get back to the issue at hand.

It wasn't sarcasm, its reality. I do own a Wessex tuba...obviously. Expensive smirks from here on out.

[marccromme]

Pay close attention to the intonation relative to the high, middle, and low range. Is it equally sharp all over, or different?

Measure carefully how far each mouthpiece goes into the receiver. I think you'll find that the PT50 doesn't go in as far as the others because the shank is a little bigger. When the overall length changes because of the way the mouthpiece fits, it will affect intonation some... not a lot, but some. A deeper cup may lower the pitch a little - again, some but not a lot.

The main tuning slide doesn't adjust far enough to get it in tune? With some Chinese instruments the legs on the tuning slide aren't long enough, or are too long. I know of one tuba that seemed to be assembled wrong, and the legs of one tuning slide had to be switched with another slide to be correct. I think that was a Mack Brass tuba. You should report the problem to Wessex.

What Dough says: check the instrument with a tuner, it should be able to play comfortably both at A=442 Hz and A=440 Hz with the main slide properly adjusted. And that goes for the high, middle and low ranges. If this is not possible, contact Jonathan at Wessex and explain your issue to him. Think over what you believe would be the correct fix for the issue (longer main tuning slide maybe??). I am sure you can agree on a fair solution with Wessex, their customer service is good and very reasonable to suggestions.

[marccromme]

It wasn't sarcasm, its reality. I do own a Wessex tuba...obviously. Expensive smirks from here on out.

Sorry, I missed the fact that you where the original poster.

But still, sarcasm woun't help you.

Checking the instrument as Doug suggests, and contacting Wessex with your findings, and with a respectful attitude will help solving your issue.

I had once an issue with one bass trombone of theirs, which Wessex did solve to my full satisfaction. I suggest you try that route ...

[toakstertuba]

Hey Sam,
I'm a proud owner of two Wessex Horns. One of them is a Luzern. I gotta tell ya I love these horns. As far as contrabass tuba goes, I like my Luzern more than my old 2145 and pt-4... nothing beats my old Rudy though.
Now, to your issue. My horn plays in tune with the mts pulled out about an inch and a quarter... up to a half inch more in a hot room. That may be a lot, but if there are no other issues than I don't see the problem. Where is yours at? I'm using a blokepiece symphony, but it's been in tune there with other pieces I've tried in it also.
Don't let the haters get to you. I did but then was reminded (by a major symphony pro player) that the reason these folks are speaking negatively about our horns, is to make themselves feel better for spending (or having mommy and daddy spend) anywhere between 2 to 4 times as much on their horn that sounds and plays just as good as ours, or in some cases not as good. Even the expensive name brand horns come out with quirks. My buddy has a Meinl Weston Eb that plays in tune with the slide pushed all the way in... so maybe there was a time when the criticism was for good reason, now though it seems like it's for self assurance

[Salazarsam33]

Hey Sam,
I'm a proud owner of two Wessex Horns. One of them is a Luzern. I gotta tell ya I love these horns. As far as contrabass tuba goes, I like my Luzern more than my old 2145 and pt-4... nothing beats my old Rudy though.
Now, to your issue. My horn plays in tune with the mts pulled out about an inch and a quarter... up to a half inch more in a hot room. That may be a lot, but if there are no other issues than I don't see the problem. Where is yours at? I'm using a blokepiece symphony, but it's been in tune there with other pieces I've tried in it also.
Don't let the haters get to you. I did but then was reminded (by a major symphony pro player) that the reason these folks are speaking negatively about our horns, is to make themselves feel better for spending (or having mommy and daddy spend) anywhere between 2 to 4 times as much on their horn that sounds and plays just as good as ours, or in some cases not as good. Even the expensive name brand horns come out with quirks. My buddy has a Meinl Weston Eb that plays in tune with the slide pushed all the way in... so maybe there was a time when the criticism was for good reason, now though it seems like it's for self assurance

Thanks, I usually get a lot of remarks but I don't think I will ever be able to afford anything better, I'll make due with what I have, I pull out a fair amount but I feel it sometimes excessive, I don't feel like it's me since I'm able to play other horns, INC Ludington other Chinese horns, in tune. The sound changes drastically with the mouthpiece change aside from the I tonation, so Im sure it's just a matter of finding a suitable one, not badmouthing the pt50 , but it is indeed too big.

The around the wessex produces is quite amaizing, I really like it, you really have to blow a lot more warm air compared to other tubas I have owned and played. It genuinely feels "very germany"

I can't afford a horn, but I can scrape up money to buy a mouthpiece that can lend a helping hand to the hard work that goes with mastering a horn.

I'll ask Johnathan for a longer tuning slide if possible, in the meantime I'll try to find a good mp.

[Salazarsam33]

I thin my inicial question wasn't properly stated.

What characteristics do mouthpieces have that give them their differing sound and feel.

Cups
Bowls?
Thoat?

What mouthpiece can I find combining the ability to lower pitch like the pt50 but have a clearer articulation. (Is it the rim, cup, bowl, reciever?)

Many thanks
-Sam

[toakstertuba]

I thin my inicial question wasn't properly stated.

What characteristics do mouthpieces have that give them their differing sound and feel.

Cups
Bowls?
Thoat?

What mouthpiece can I find combining the ability to lower pitch like the pt50 but have a clearer articulation. (Is it the rim, cup, bowl, reciever?)

Many thanks
-Sam

I'm using the Sellmansberger symphony cup with symphony backbore and a #2 rim on my Luzern. I play in tune with great clarity in articulation and slurs. Not to toot my own horn or anything... or maybe to toot my own horn?

[Doug Elliott]

I thin my inicial question wasn't properly stated.

What characteristics do mouthpieces have that give them their differing sound and feel.

Cups
Bowls?
Thoat?

What mouthpiece can I find combining the ability to lower pitch like the pt50 but have a clearer articulation. (Is it the rim, cup, bowl, reciever?)

Many thanks
-Sam

All of the above.
Seriously, you DON'T want a mouthpiece to lower the pitch. Fix the HORN's problem.

[Wyvern]

I am pleased you like the sound of the Luzern, but sorry to hear you are having tuning issues with your preferred mouthpieces. Different mouthpieces do affect tuning quite a bit and not all mouthpieces work with all tubas. You are best to experiment and find what works best for you to give the attack you want and tuning.

The Wessex Luzern is made to play at A=442Hz (using supplied WESSEX CHIEF mouthpiece) with main tuning slide all the way in, as we sell around the world, and that is required for many countries. Playing at 440Hz I would expect the tuning slide to be out just over 1 inch, although some individuals play sharper, or flatter naturally and with change of mouthpieces can make quite a variation. It is not possible to have tuba which will adapt to all variations, as that would mean super long tuning slide putting in more parallel tubing which is not good for the playing of the tuba.

Every Wessex tuba which has come out of factory in last 2 years was play tested in China before accepting including against tuner for intonation. We do refuse if not acceptable. I have just come back from 10 days at factory quality checking and did reject 2 tubas for playing unacceptably sharp.

In the end if you cannot pull the tuning slide far enough, we can obtain and supply longer tuning slide for your Luzern. That will be no problem.

[MaryAnn]

Listen to Doug Elliot. He is an expert, not the only expert but one I would certainly listen to.

On technique, which has not been mentioned: Since I developed focal dystonia and had to learn to play differently (basically with air instead of chops, although my sound for some reason has not changed that I can detect) my tuning slide is all the way in all the time, except in the most extreme of temperatures (outdoor concerts over 100 degrees.) That was not so before dystonia; it was usually out about half an inch (on a horn, not a tuba.) So it is a worthwhile enterprise for basically anyone to try the full range of chops vs air on a single pitch: get that pitch with as much chops and as little air as possible, and then go to the other end and get that pitch with as much air and as little chops as possible. It can be enlightening if done with mindful attention.