Sound/Projection question?

[TubaZac2012]

So this could ALL be the microphone on my phone that I used to live stream my concert from Sunday, but there were only a few times where I could really hear or feel myself in my community band. Worst of all in my "quintet" really a group comprised of seven people including myself. Two trumpets, two horns, two trombones, and myself on my York CC. USUALLY I play F in quintet, but I am in the process of selling mine, and the literature we're playing calls for a CC tuba. Plus my CC tuba isn't huge so I thought it would workout well.

Anyways, so I go to my local cigar lounge after the concert and listen to the concert in it's entirety and I am left wondering where was I? I mean I was playing very full, with a nice huge sound, good intonation, but I just wasn't being heard well. I texted my teacher who I've been with for nearly a year now who's been helping me, and he said that not sticking out isn't necessarily a bad thing. He said you have such a big mellow sound you're probably just blending with the ensemble really well. Which is a really good thing, apparently.

I was left wondering if it might be an equipment issue. I LOVE my York CC, but the bore is like .687ish Tabor can correct me, and that's pretty small, but the horn has tons of core and an amazing sound. My teacher said not to worry about that, because the York plays really well. I mean here in the next couple years I will certainly upgrade to something more suitable, but the York is a fabulous horn.

Has this ever happened to you? Have you played a great performance, but not be heard for a lot of it due to the band being too loud, or your horn not cutting? If so tell me about your experience and how you were able to make a change.

Thanks for reading good to be posting again,
Zac

[EdFirth]

Where was your phone while you were recording? Have you used it before with better results? In my experience with this the taller German style horns and the American horns with taller bells,old style Kings and Reynolds, seem to "get out in the house" more while the shorter horns sound more full in the immediate vicinity of the horn. Did any of the other players sound unusual on the recording? It could be as simple as the mic in your phone not being low friendly. You could also get someone to play your horn for a tune and walk around to hear what's happening.Good luck with it. Ed

[TubaZac2012]

My buddy recorded for me! I He was in the second or third row towards the middle.

[bort]

the microphone on my phone

Phone microphones are garbage. In fact, I even think that many "concert recordings" made by well-intending amateur (or worse) "audio engineers" stink as well. It'll never sound on recordings the way it sounds out front. Maybe invite (or lure with beer) your teacher to the next performance and get his opinion?

Also, if you're used to hearing your old Willson on recordings (which is a projection *monster*) or even the 6/4 York or 1291 that you had, then yes, you will be hearing something different this time. Of course that's not a bad thing, it's just different. At my first rehearsal with my Willson, I had the opposite reaction. I thought I was working my *** off back there, only to find out that (in the Willson style) that the player feedback was minimal (and masked by having a sousaphone bell in my ear), but the projection was HUGE.

[TubaZac2012]

Yeah. I just think the York isn't meant to cut. I've cut before, and I think it's the horn. Of course my teacher said that he could hear me with external speakers, but I listened again with headphones and it didn't help much. My buddy that recorded said he could hear me though, and he was there live, so that's all that matters I suppose.

[windshieldbug]

the microphone on my phone

Phone microphones are garbage. In fact, I even think that many "concert recordings" made by well-intending amateur (or worse) "audio engineers" stink as well. It'll never sound on recordings the way it sounds out front. Maybe invite (or lure with beer) your teacher to the next performance and get his opinion?

^this; it's the mic, not the speakers- no bass

If beer doesn't work try single-malt scotch...

[Michael Bush]

Here is a G50 swallowing an orchestra of 100+.
https://youtu.be/m5miK0Nz3Uw?t=5m40s

Is that Chester Schmitz? I caught one glimpse and thought it looked like him.

[TubaZac2012]

Here is a G50 swallowing an orchestra of 100+.
https://youtu.be/m5miK0Nz3Uw?t=5m40s

Is that Chester Schmitz? I caught one glimpse and thought it looked like him.

I watched it when I got a chance on lunch break, and I was wondering the same thing. If this is the world renowned Chester Schmitz you're comparing me, a 22 year old to one of the best players that has ever played the instrument, but yeah, you're right. It's the Indian not the arrow.

[TubaZac2012]

I think in many instances that smaller horns can project and cut better than large horns. Listen to older LA Philharmonic recordings, and that horn Bobo used was a Miraphone 184CC with a larger bell, I believe. I have heard the Columbus Symphony perform live several times, and the tubist used a Cerveny Piggy and a real York 4/4 CC (factory made, not cut). I have never had an issue hearing him cut through and overpower if needed. On the other hand, I have heard performances and live concerts where the performer used a 6/4 tuba and I didn't hear much tuba at all.

I wouldn't trust a phone speaker, which I assume you put on your stand. I wouldn't always trust a good mic in the hall. Have someone you trust sit in the back of the hall and tell you.

My buddy said he could hear/feel me very well throughout. I know what you mean, though. I think the cutting thing isn't that big of a deal. The big place I wanted to cut and stick out was on the Dixieland brass part, and you can hear that where my friend is recording the video. James, we're on Facebook. Go back and listen. It's there.

[Tom]

the microphone on my phone

...was in the second or third row towards the middle.

Phone microphones are garbage.

Yes they are, and so are phone speakers and the cheap earbuds and headphones most people connect to them. A phone recording is about the last thing you should use to judge something like projection. An external mic might help if you're dead set on using your phone, but if you're serious about recording your own playing or band concerts in a relatively simple manner, you may be better served by purchasing a much higher quality digital recorder and carefully considering where to place it. Something like a Zoom or perhaps a Yamaha Pocketrak (those are only $150). I'd also say that your friend was WAY too close to the band to get a good, balanced recording (if such a thing is possible on a phone), let alone one in which you could have had any chance of judging projection. If you play in a hall with a balcony and want to self-record, consider using some gaff tape to tape the recorder (yes, seriously) to the front railing of the balcony - it's probably about the best place you could put it.

[Tom]

I think in many instances that smaller horns can project and cut better than large horns.

I agree 100% with you, James. Right on.

[roweenie]

https://www.amazon.com/DR-40-4-Track-Po ... B005NACC6M" target="_blank

[roweenie]

https://www.amazon.com/DR-40-4-Track-Po ... B005NACC6M" target="_blank

1/ Do those have external mic inputs ?

2/ Isn't it safer for me to post esoteric posts about achieving a world-class sound, rather than demonstrating to God-and-everyone that I myself am unable to produce one ?

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/XD6tp9eomdM/hqdefault.jpg

1) Yes.

2) Sez you...

[TubaZac2012]

This is a good topic regarding expectations and concepts of sound. I well blended ensemble sound is not bad. Too often I am reading topics on the boards talking about huge amounts of core sound, probably coming from players who are playing as the lone tuba voice. It's a tuba forum. I get it. However IMHO there is a time and place for that colorful sound.

Did the style of music ask that you cut through?

Did you have big solos that didn't project over the ensemble or are you talking about tuba harmony music that didn't cut through?

The only the part that I REALLY wanted to cut came out in the recording. It was a Dixieland brass section that I had a really nice walking bass line. I wasn't trying to cut, but I would've liked to have heard myself in the recording. That's all I meant with the entire post. I just find it funny. I mean I've cut through an entire orchestra in both a 1291 CC and a 3050, but can't cut through a 50 piece band on my York, but of course I was trying to cut there, and wasn't here, so I guess I can't expect to cut when I wasn't trying to do so. I really was just trying to play my part with the biggest, fattest sound possible, and let the more important parts be heard.

Hope this all made sense!

[bort]

https://www.amazon.com/DR-40-4-Track-Po ... B005NACC6M" target="_blank

+1, I have one and it's great!

[doublebuzzing]

The tuba has to be one of the hardest instruments for recordings to do justice. Just listen to the recordings of the CSO with Jacobs on tuba. On many of them he is almost unheard, but in concert you can definitely hear or feel his presence. I go to Minnesota Orchestra concerts sometimes and the tuba has unbelievable presence and then the next night I listen to the radio broadcast and you can hardly hear him (and those are professional mics).

[PaulMaybery]

Part of projection is more than just volume and focus but the timing of the release of the note. It is a very subtle effect, but getting the tuba note out in the air, a micro second (almost inperceptably) ahead of the chord leads the listeners ear to your sound. It also serves a second purpose in creating a solid foundation for the ensemble intonation. If the tuba enters exactly in time with the ensemble there is little or no chance that the others have time to tune to your pitch, nor will you have much affect in driving the chord. This is not implying that you should rush, but simply be aware of timing and where the tuba sound should be positioned in a chord. My feeling is that in using this concept one really does not need to blow as hard. I suppose it is more about playing smart.

[MaryAnn]

And I'll point out that that anticipation of the beat, or playing at the "front" of the beat, sounds like everything is in sync out in the hall. I was very familiar with our local symphony tubist's playing and it drove me a little nuts in small groups because he was always ahead of the beat. But with the orchestra, it was perfect for the audience.

[Peach]

On the topic of digital recorders but not wanting to derail this thread...

What are opinions of Tascam vs Zoom H1 or H4 if one is looking for something fairly basic to record practice / concerts in a variety of spaces without messing with external mics etc?
Thanks!

[Rick Denney]

And I'll point out that that anticipation of the beat, or playing at the "front" of the beat, sounds like everything is in sync out in the hall. I was very familiar with our local symphony tubist's playing and it drove me a little nuts in small groups because he was always ahead of the beat. But with the orchestra, it was perfect for the audience.

Yes.

The big Holton is felt more than heard; the Hirsbrunner (also very big) punches a hole in the band even when the band is too loud. Each has its place. Neither is invisible, but the Hirsbrunner can definitely be more conspicuous, and just like with any power tool, care is needed.

But that isn't the significant issue here. The issue here is a microphone that rolls off at 200 Hz, and a speaker that rolls off at 300Hz (200Hz for the headphones). A low Bb has a 58-Hz nominal frequency, so the phone will only record and play the higher overtones in the sound. That can even change the apparent pitch. Also, the microphone is omnidirectional with a limited range and no stereo imaging, and in a resonant room, the room effects will overpower the line-of-sight sound to a greater extent than will those directional and stereophonic ears.

When I have recorded myself, I used an old Sony minidisc recorder and a nice Audio Technika stereo microphone. The modern digital recorders also use a binaural microphone setup, and the digital front-ends are quite linear in their response and easy to calibrate to the built-in microphone. But you still have to put them close to the musicians in a resonant room.

Rick "who never had any trouble hearing a good player with a 6/4 tuba, even from the back row of a 3000-seat auditorium, using actual ears" Denney