Adding a 6th valve to a B&S Symphonie

[pjv]

Haha
Thanks for the picture reduction. I always seem to get lost in the TubeNet functions. Is this me or because I have a Mac?

The tuning advantages of a 6 banger are known to me, which is why I've been considering this move in the first place. The votes against cutting into an instrument that plays as well as mine confirm my fears, so I'm leaning towards leaving it as is and looking further at what's out on the market.

The action arms are obviously older Miraphone linkage. I reversed 1-3 to resemble 4. Thanks.

[Rick Denney]

By the way, on the subject of valve linkages for these, some years ago I made a web page describing how I replaced the linkages on my 5-valve Symphonie. I prefer these to the Miraphone white-plastic ball ends. I love the turned Miraphone shaft, but that white plastic did (and had done) bad things on my Miraphone before I replace them. What I did is a lot more adjustable, too.

http://www.rickdenney.com/valve_linkages.htm

I was not aware that B&S was now using physically larger valves. This was not the case when my six-valve version was made, which was later than the left-thumb five-valve model I had (and that I suspect yours was at first). That alone makes me retract my previous suggestion to use factory parts.

Rick "impressed by how strong Bloke's chops are to be able to get a good sound on a low D using 1-3" Denney

[pjv]

Rick, nice work. I wish I had this talent. Actually, I wish I had any other talent as long as it earned real money. (Not complaining, but at 53 being a free lance tuba player in the Netherlands is not necessarily the high live).

Bloke, I turned the linkage angle 180 degrees on 1-3 to match 4. Valves 1&2 rotate counter clockwise, 3&4 clockwise. Uh, correct?

BerlinerTuba, I'll send you a PM. I'd like to pick your brain about names and addresses.

And thank you all for the collective info.

[pjv]

Ok, then I understand you correctly the first time and have since done that (good time to grease things up while I'm at it).
I probably had turned the 3 arms around years ago just to get them tighter. They tend to rotate a bit during usage/playing (but not 180 degrees of course).
That's what happens when you give a screwdriver to an amateur....

[cjk]

Have you considered shortening the 5th valve to a flat half step, then adding a dependent flat whole step rotor in either the 4th valve tubing or 4th valve slide? I think this would keep it playing the same way it plays now, but with more flexibility of a 6 valve system. This also seems more easily undoable than your initial query.

The vast majority of the time, the flat whole step fifth is used in conjunction with the 4th anyway.

I would expect low G (ie below the bass clef staff) on your tuba as it is set up now to be 1+2+4+5 or 3+4+5. Are neither of those valve combinations in the ballpark?

[cjk]

Would a 2nd valve kicker help?

I can think of several Youtube videos (but can't link them right this minute) where 5-valve B&S F tuba players are using their slide triggers constantly.

One was a Mnozil video, and Willi is working a 5th valve slide like yours constantly. The other was some different group, and there was a RH-activated 1st valve kicker.

I'm not sure either is particularly ideal, but clearly these horns are pretty special and worth the workarounds.

Willi used to play a Rudolf Meinl F tuba with the 5th valve trigger. It looked sort of like a B&S, but was not.

[bort]

Aah, got it. Thanks!

[pjv]

The dependent system has indeed also crossed my mind, though I always thought about a 5th with a dep. 6th, never a 6th with a dep. 5th.
My tuba play's very well in tune actually. Low G=534 slide OUT. I see no reason at this time to change the 5th tuning because it works as great, or as its gonna get for a 5 banger. Shortening it back to a flat whole step would be a waste of money unless there was a good reason for it.
If I did a 6th operation (dependent or independent) I would most probably cut it. Modernizing my tuning lever is another option. For my tuba probably better. For me, no.

[cjk]

Is your A below the staff in the ballpark when played with 2+3+4 or stinky flat?

I'm guessing from the picture that your 3rd valve slide was shortened previously.

I suggest trying to pull 3rd out as far as you can tolerate. Tune G# and C# a bit under, but lippable, like 10 cents.
After that, you may be able to play the G at the bottom of the staff 1+3 now, so pull out the 4th slide out a bit too (if you're splitting the difference between G and C), even if it makes the low C just a bit low.

See if doing both of those things makes the low G work.

[pjv]

Haha. Ya the low A is flat, fortunaly not as bad as it could be and this is liplappen. 54 with the 5th slide maxed out doesn't cut it.
I've tried long 3rd tunings but on this tuba other notes get unhappy. My big pull note is the low G, 2nd partial. So ya a longer third slide will resolve this but flatten the F# (which is fine), thus transferring the problem. Again, my 5th is a high two stepper.
Thanks.
Ps. I'll try the low 3v again. People change.

[cjk]

Haha. Ya the low A is flat, fortunaly not as bad as it could be and this is liplappen. 524 with the 5th slide maxed out doesn't cut it.
I've tried long 3rd tunings but on this tuba other notes get unhappy. My big pull note is the low G, 2nd partial. So ya a longer third slide will resolve this but flatten the F# (which is fine), thus transferring the problem. Again, my 5th is a high two stepper.
Thanks.
Ps. I'll try the low 3v again. People change.

It's sounding like your 5th valve is just too short. 2+4+5 should be a sharper Ab. "A" should be close 4+5. Do you tune your fifth valve to an in-tune Bb fingered 2+3+5 ?

[tclements]

I would NOT add a 6th valve to this tuba; it could EASILY ruin it. I would suggest buying a 6 valve and playing it for 6-9 months. THEN decide if the 6 valve is what you really want. I learned how to play with this set up (I'm another Bobo student) and it is easily workable, if one spends time playing scales and Rochuts in the lower register (aka THE TRITONE OF DEATH).

[pjv]

Oops, my mistake. (I was thinking in the tuning of my other F which has a conventional flat whole step 5v) I'll correct it.
Ya low A is a bit low with 234, but 54 doesn't cut it.

[bisontuba]

How is low A 1,4, & 5 with the 5th trigger not moved at all ( in other words, 5th slide is all the way in)?

[cjk]

Oops, my mistake. (I was thinking in the tuning of my other F which has a conventional flat whole step 5v) I'll correct it.
Ya low A is a bit low with 234, but 54 doesn't cut it.

I'm pretty sure your 5th valve tubing is just too short. Fix that first and you might be happier with it.

[bisontuba]

Oops, my mistake. (I was thinking in the tuning of my other F which has a conventional flat whole step 5v) I'll correct it.
Ya low A is a bit low with 234, but 54 doesn't cut it.

I'm pretty sure your 5th valve tubing is just too short. Fix that first and you might be happier with it.

+1