Drug Dealers and Drug Traffic

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funkcicle
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Post by funkcicle »

Captain Sousie wrote: If you notice however, I did not list murder and death among the problems in Amsterdam specifically. Your sources also only listed the US and not anything of Europe outside of the Netherlands. As my comments were restricted to Europe, and not the US, it seems that we are both plagued with misinformation.

[...]

Now that you have relevant information on the topic, maybe we can both look for current info hmmm?
I'm not quite sure how comparing Crime in the Netherlands to the rest of Europe is more relevant than comparing it the United States.. since that's what is being discussed(i'm not calling your info irrelevant either, it most certainly is).

By the way, have you ever been to Amsterdam?
Every November I take a trip to Amsterdam with a buddy of mine and whichever friends we each get to come along(he lives in Florida and I live in New York, going to europe makes for a MUCH more interesting reunion). I've lived in and frequent a dozen U.S. cities and I'd say Amsterdam in almost all respects is on par with any large american tourist town. It's got it's bad areas, but you only come across them if you're looking for prostitutes.

Another interesting statistic... the average height in Amsterdam for men has grown SIX INCHES and for women FOUR INCHES in the last 40 years.




....coincidence? You decide! :o
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Chuck(G)
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Post by Chuck(G) »

Doc wrote: Maybe some of you young folk don't realize how conservative Dem. President John F. Kennedy was. Certainly a more conservative philosophically than today's conservatives. Do a little research on his policies/philosophies and tell me what you think. If the Dem Party was like that of Kennedy or Truman, conservatives would still be in the minority.
...and Doc, remember how liberal Nixon was. At various times, Nixon campaigned for a federally guaranteed income (working or not), socialized medicine and honest government . :shock:

It's pointless to assign labels to the political parties, since they seem to be able to change their stripes at will.
:lol:
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Post by funkcicle »

bloke wrote:
Typical mainstream news media version of this wrote:...men has grown SIX INCHES...for women....but you only come..if you're looking for prostitutes.


:shock: :lol:
bloke.. to me, at 3am, after getting back from a last-minute-and-very-busy-two-day-trip-out-of-the-country(but not far away), in my current state of mind, in the spirit of this thread, you are officially the funniest man in the room.
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Post by adam0408 »

I was going to bite my tounge (or my fingers) in this situation, but really I cannot resist.

THIS IS NOT A POLITICAL ISSUE!!

ITS NOT A RELIGIOUS ISSUE!!

Thats the way I see it. Too many people can look at an issue like this and say "someone who supports legalization of pot (as an example) is a devil worshipping demon hippy liberal." While in fact the personal reasons for supporting legalization of a certain controlled substance may be very different from the stereotypical personality.

This is an issue of individual choice and individual thought. Like abortion, it becomes an issue of politics and religion because people want to FORCE others to think the way they think and legislate change in the world, while real change only comes with a change of heart and opinion. This is why education is so important. Tell kids about the dangers of pot, the dangers of alcohol, etc., and let them make their own decisions. Politicians make this a political issue because something like this is so devisive. Taking sides on a debate like this automatically associates oneself with a political party, and grabs votes. Your precious "bloodless conservative" politician or "commie liberal" politician probably believes in only about half of what he says.

As has been said, gangs largely derive economic support from the drug trade in some way shape or form. Gangs will not disappear if we legalize a drug or drugs. Killing will not stop. What will stop is an ineffectual government trying to stop up holes in a very leaky dike with way too few fingers. I am referring largely to the legalization of pot because it is one of the more benign drugs on the list of illegal substances, and the most likely to be legalized within my lifetime. And let me tell you, legalizing pot will probably make it only marginally more available than it is now. Anyone with any ambition at all can purchase pot quite readily in this day and age. Wake up people. Its illegal, but so easy to get.

Captain Sousie, you are wrong. Marijuana does not contain nicotine. The chemical in pot that gets a person high is THC. Nicotine is a stimulant. THC is not. Nicotine is physically addictive. THC is not. "Contact High" is very hard to experience, and likely a figment of people's imagination. As far as carcinogens is concerned, Tobacco wins hands down. Caffeine even has a larger affect on your body than pot does! And its fantastically addictive as you probably already know. Tar levels are quite a bit higher in pot, so you werent completely off the mark. Look what I found on the handy dandy internet: http://www.cannabis.com/faqs/ Although it is skewed to the perspective of the pothead, it does dispell a lot of myths about the drug. The problems you have in finding the truth in this issue is the fact that there are a lot of crazies on both sides of the issue.
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Post by corbasse »

Captain Sousie wrote:...... Also, think about the fact that the crime rates in the netherlands are exclusive of many kinds of drug related offenses (due to some drugs being completely legal) that the other countries must report.

Sou

By the way, have you ever been to Amsterdam?
I'm not going to enter the discussion too much, I can't express myself in English well enough.
I do want to debunk one myth:
There are no legal drugs in the Netherlands.
Use of cannabis is condoned.
Posession of a small amount for personal use is condoned.
Sale of the stuff in controlled shops ("coffee shops") is condoned.

Any posession or trade of amounts more than an ounce or so, smuggling, growing etc. etc. is illegal and is prosecuted just like anywhere else.

So, those large numbers of crimes related to drugs which are not reported according to you are all those dangerous criminals who are in posession of an ounce of pot or less.

So, if you talk about facts, get them straight first.

edit: stupid proofreading error
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Post by ThomasDodd »

I wonder how pot compares to tobacco, when smoked the same way?
Do the tar studies consider filtered, unfiltered, or pipes for either?

I certain that pot has medical uses. Sure it's not completely safe, but neither are most drugs (Rx or not, look at the stuff used in chemo) It's been said that all medicines contain some amount of poison. I wonder what would happen if you took a 20/30 asprin?

Make it like alcohol and tobacco. Age of majority for use/possesion, and inforce the laws when others are at risk. Most states allow some private alcohol production, and I thinjk tobacco is the same, so pot would follow suit.

As far as DUI/DWI goes, lot's of pprescription meds have warnings about impairment. My wife cannot drive after taking pseudoephedrine. You think she was drunk. A lot of cough syrups can have a similar affect in larger doses. I knew the type to drink them a bottle at a time for the "buzz" they got.

It's time for the government to stop being nannies, and for people tio take responsibility for what they do. I I can drink a bottle of wine, and not harm others, I could surely smoke a joint, and be just as responsible.
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Post by MaryAnn »

It's interesting what happens when you post a new topic on Friday and return to it on Monday. The expected range of comments, many of them thought out and some knee-jerk.

Two:
1. Whoever said I was wrong about writing that if you buy drugs you particpate in the murders etc involved to get them, using an example of Canadian pot, yeah you could be right, if I buy Canadian pot. I guess I was referred to the other drugs.

2. As for contact high....it does exist. It probably is rare. On two occasions I have been exposed to MJ smoke and spent a considerable portion of the night worshiping the procelain throne, and am certain the exposure was the cause. I appear to have an allergy to it. So even though I advocate legalization for the reasons stated, it would make my life a LOT more difficult if I could not find a way to not be exposed to second-hand MJ smoke.

MA
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Post by Tubaryan12 »

these folks could be given a good "home" with really good security, air-conditioning, heat, their own bed, and three squares a day.
Maybe I watch too much t.v., but I would guess security is no better in jail than it is where they are now. At least you can run on the streets :shock: other than that, you are correct.
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Post by Chuck(G) »

Lots of high emotion here.

Time for a burger break:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05124/498674.stm

Image
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Lew
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Post by Lew »

Chuck(G) wrote:Lots of high emotion here.

Time for a burger break:

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05124/498674.stm

Image
OK, I'm flying there tomorrow. I need a bite of something to eat and those 1 pound burgers just don't hack it. :)
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Post by funkcicle »

Doc wrote:Marijuana doesn't hurt anyone just like murder doesn't hurt anyone. How about the concept of right and wrong?
So what is inherently "wrong" with smoking marijuana? What is the moral argument that the simple act of smoking marijuana is a "bad thing"?

I think a lot of people have the issue mixed up too.. the public fight for marijuana isn't about blanket legalisation, it's about decriminalisation and research into legitimate uses. I think we can all agree that a fight for complete legalisation wouldn't go too far, and would be.. well, pretty dumb. But closing our minds to the potential benefits of these substances is JUST AS F**KING STUPID as subscribing to the anarchist philosophy of drug control.

Hydrocodone is a drug often prescribed for pain.. it is still illegal to posess if you don't have a legit script for it, and there are those who abuse it(most famously, Rush Limbaugh). I don't know what your answers will be to my first two questions, but for the sake of consistency I hope you're able to replace "marijuana" with "hydrocodone", or "percocet", or "vicodin" and give the exact same answer.

I don't want to make a case one way or the other, but who here has researched the effects of the above mentioned pain killers on the body and risks associated with taking them, compared to the effects and risks of responsible pot smoking? The information is out there, and is well worth searching for.

Funk "who knows of many cases of kidney failure caused by OTC tylenol, but not a single one related to pot" cicle
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Post by Mark »

MaryAnn wrote:1. Whoever said I was wrong about writing that if you buy drugs you particpate in the murders etc involved to get them, using an example of Canadian pot, yeah you could be right, if I buy Canadian pot. I guess I was referred to the other drugs.
I live close to the Canadian border, and I can tell you that there are backwoods areas in British Columbia that you had better not go hikling in because you will not come out again.
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Post by MaryAnn »

Sorry to hear that about BC. It is one of my favorite locations on the planet.
However, if MJ were legal, there would be no danger in approaching growing areas, right? Unless you were a thief.

MA
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Post by Mark »

MaryAnn wrote:However, if MJ were legal, there would be no danger in approaching growing areas, right? Unless you were a thief.
If MJ were legal then they would be growing poppies.
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Post by ThomasDodd »

Mark wrote:If MJ were legal then they would be growing poppies.
Is the climate really acceptable for that?

One of the great things about MJ and hemp is it's a weed and will grow almost any where.
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Post by Dylan King »

That's right! It's a weed. A plant. It grows in the ground from seed that was given by the Almighty Eternal Father.

Genesis 1:11 Then God said, "Let the earth bring forth grass, the herb that yields seed, and the fruit tree that yields fruit according to its kind, whose seed is in itself, on the earth"; and it was so. 12And the earth brought forth grass, the herb that yields seed according to its kind, and the tree that yields fruit, whose seed is in itself according to its kind. And God saw that it was good. 13So the evening and the morning were the third day.

I agree that He doesn't want us to abuse cannabis, but with all of the fantastic uses hemp has to offer, do you really think the Lord didn't want us to use it?

It is Satan who keeps gifts from the Eternal from God's children. Whether it be through human ignorance, government, or anything else, Satan is in charge right now. Thank God his power on this earth will be coming to an end very soon.
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Post by adam0408 »

interesting idea mellowsmokeman.....

And yeah I know what youre all thinking, but I am not a pothead. It just bothers me when people make generalizations and use false facts to bolster arguments.

I think the whole reason our country is slowly spiralling down the toilet is not drugs, not crime, not politicians, but our stupid attitudes about life, trying to control others, and capitalism.... and those damn alto clarinets... what are they for anyway?
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Post by Chuck(G) »

MellowSmokeMan wrote:That's right! It's a weed. A plant. It grows in the ground from seed that was given by the Almighty Eternal Father
So are the coca plant and psychedellic mushrooms. I fail to grasp your point. :?
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Post by Dylan King »

Chuck(G) wrote:
So are the coca plant and psychedellic mushrooms. I fail to grasp your point. :?
Mushrooms are not a seeded plant. Some Bible scholars theorise that the "manna" in Exodus that God's people eat are psychodelic mushrooms. I haven't made up my mind about this one, but it is a possiblility. Cocaine is processed from the plant to become useful as a drug. Yes, one can chew on the leaves and get high, but that doesn't seem to be the way they do it here in America. It probably isn't much more dangerous than chewing tobacco, which is legal in all 50 states.

Cannabis can be used as food, medicine, paper, fuel, fiber, shelter, and the list goes on and on. All in it's natural form! To me it is more likely that the "manna" in the Bible is related to the cannabis plant, but I'll have to dig deeper to find the truth about about that. One does not need a processing plant to get one or more of the many benefits of the cannabis plant. One only needs to pick it from the ground. If marijuana was legal and didn't cost as much as gold, I would be able to grow it in my own garden. Smoking would become a thing of the past. I preffer to eat it over smoking it. I wonder how many carcinogens go into one's system by mixing buds in their food? I have never heard of adverse effects of consuming cannabis orally. It's like cooking with oregano and basil.

Interesting. I don't necessarily agree. But it is interesting...

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:mXDj ... ible&hl=en

More interesting reading here...

http://www.egodeath.com/amanita.htm
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Post by Chuck(G) »

MellowSmokeMan wrote:Mushrooms are not a seeded plant. Some Bible scholars theorise that the "manna" in Exodus that God's people eat are psychodelic mushrooms. I haven't made up my mind about this one, but it is a possiblility.
Interesting! Up here in Oregon, during the autumn, mushrooms can indeed spring up overnight. Since the main body of the fungus is far underground, picking the mushrooms doesn't harm it at all.

And there are several Native American tribes who consider the psychoactive ones sacred. (Not to mention the cooks among us who think some edible species are quite divine when prepared properly).

Did you know that a fungus is the largest discovered living organism?

http://www.infoplease.com/spot/fungus1.html

Taxonomists generally classify fungi as plant forms but I suppose that since they reproduce asexually, spores aren't considered to be seeds:

http://www.infoplease.com/ce6/sci/A0839293.html
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