BBb Tubas for High School

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

I have a question about this. Do you mean any King 2341 or Miraphone 186? These models have changed a little over time. If the OP takes this advice and purchases a new version of one of these instruments, can they be expected to perform like older versions?

Watchman
bugler

Pretty much. They are great horns all around.

Dan'l

[Radar]

They clearly haven't accepted that they aren't a wealthy school. Refusing used instruments and repair donations should have coherent, tax-paying parents seeking answers and change.

Today's administators seem to be moving further and further away from reality.

What is the penalty if you just buy used instruments anyway? There are worse rules to break...

The people making the rules sign the purchase orders.

Besides, if a purchase order is submitted for 50 unbridged English dictionaries, made payable to "Big Ben's Bookstore" and they bring home my Olds 099-4 with mouthpiece and case, questions will be asked and, rightly, heads would roll.

Being someone who does government purchasing at the local level, there are many reasons why used equipment isn't allowed to be purchased. One of the biggest is meeting the requirements of competitive bidding. Although it would be nice to be able to buy good quality used instruments, almost all government agencies will have similar prohibitions, and expenditures are all under a lot of scrutiny. If I were to fraudulently buy used equipment and it was found out, I would soon be unemployed. In my job we are occasionally audited and I have to produce equipment that I've bought to the auditors. For me to make a purchase of used equipment I would have to get legislative approval, and would have to justify the need ie: prove that equivalent new equipment wasn't available (price would not be considered a good enough justification). I'm not saying that this is the best policy, and I agree in this case that used equipment in good condition would be the best option, what I am saying is the decision is often out of the hands of the purchaser / end user and it isn't always an option.

[Three Valves]

In my wife's school district, they save a good deal by buying quality, good condition used, band and orchestra instruments. She doesn't do any buying herself. She identifies the need and provides info regards possible options that would be appropriate. They take the ball and run with from there. Not rocket surgery.

Rational decision making on a local level must be eliminated immediately!!

[toobagrowl]

I'm not very excited about Yamaha sousaphones, but the Eastaha sousaphone (which I HAVE dealt with in 3D) looks/plays so much like a Yamaha sousaphone that I can't help but wonder if Eastman isn't now making the Yamaha sousaphones.

Do the Eastman sousas have "Made in Japan" stamped on the valve cluster like the Yamaha sousas? Doubt it. Do the Eastman sousas have those funky thick ferrules with the little screws in them like the Yamaha sousas? Doubt it.

I guess you need to wonder if Wisemann is now making the (real) B&S PT-6P tubas...


As for high school tubas: King BBb.

[The Big Ben]

- free up the totally-frozen with lime-deposits 4th rotors or...
- just fix the valves that ACTUALLY DO get mashed on ?

That's funny. One of my best friends played the tuba in the school band (I played trumpet at the time) and the band had 2 Mira 186 BBbs. He had started on a souzy in jr. high and never learned what to use the 4th valve for in HS. I didn't know this at the time but when I started playing tuba a few years ago, I asked him about the use of the 4th valve and he just said "I have no idea".

The same could be said with double French horns. How many school players actually use the change valve and Bb fingerings for midrange and above? Give 'em a Conn 4D or an equivalent.

[The Big Ben]

I have a question about this. Do you mean any King 2341 or Miraphone 186? These models have changed a little over time. If the OP takes this advice and purchases a new version of one of these instruments, can they be expected to perform like older versions?

Pretty much. They are great horns all around.

I think the "cheap" 186 comes sans bell wreath, too.

[TubaRay]

What is the penalty if you just buy used instruments anyway? There are worse rules to break...

The people making the rules sign the purchase orders.

Besides, if a purchase order is submitted for 50 unbridged English dictionaries, made payable to "Big Ben's Bookstore" and they bring home my Olds 099-4 with mouthpiece and case, questions will be asked and, rightly, heads would roll.

Being someone who does government purchasing at the local level, there are many reasons why used equipment isn't allowed to be purchased. One of the biggest is meeting the requirements of competitive bidding. Although it would be nice to be able to buy good quality used instruments, almost all government agencies will have similar prohibitions, and expenditures are all under a lot of scrutiny. If I were to fraudulently buy used equipment and it was found out, I would soon be unemployed. In my job we are occasionally audited and I have to produce equipment that I've bought to the auditors. For me to make a purchase of used equipment I would have to get legislative approval, and would have to justify the need ie: prove that equivalent new equipment wasn't available (price would not be considered a good enough justification). I'm not saying that this is the best policy, and I agree in this case that used equipment in good condition would be the best option, what I am saying is the decision is often out of the hands of the purchaser / end user and it isn't always an option.

WORD!

[iiipopes]

This is *my* "LET'S GET REAL, HERE" question:

When it's "kohnsert seezun"..."kontest" it coming up, and the "kohnsert toobuhz" are frantically sent in for repair...

SHOULD I...

- free up the totally-frozen with lime-deposits 4th rotors or...
- just fix the valves that ACTUALLY DO get mashed on ?

Free them up. And when the band director comes to pick them up (who probably has no experience with tubas), remind him that 1+3=4, but better in tune.

[modelerdc]

Having taught middle school and high school band for many years here's my take on this:

Ergonomics-should balance in the lap with the mouthpiece well place for average student. High school you can assume adult height, less for middle school-No instrument available in the US has adjustable angle and height of mpc to face other than sousaphones.

Tone-good centered broad sound that can be felt as well as heard. the tone of the large old Conn upright basses and Holton 345s are perfect for a large band or wind ensemble. Much better than 4/4 tubas like 186, 2341, etc.
Intonation- bugle should intonation as good as King 2341. Some programs can actually teach students to use the 4th valve- how is another discussion.However the out of vogue 3 valve compensating would be great for many programs.

What horn comes close? For Middle school the king 2341, and since they don't make a 3 valve compensating version actually teach the students to use the 4th. Use tuba stands for those students who don't naturally fit it. Tuba stands are cheap compared with the problems of poor posture and embouchure.

For High school I really like a bigger tuba. Hirsbrunner used to make a large 4/4 with a sound bigger than the 186 but with 3 compensating valves. Of course the cost of this instrument is prohibitive even if it could be ordered. The Holton 345 had a really glorious sound. Would be nice if Wessex or somebody cloned a nice playing example. Miraphone makes a really nice large piston B flat, the 1291. Only the best funded programs can afford it. However the 1291 and the non compensating version of the Hirsbrunner have been cloned. Both are compact for the large size of the tuba. These would be good for schools with modest budgets.

[TubaTed]

Yamaha makes all their student line in China and Indonesia now. Only intermediate and pro level is still made in Japan. I suppose it's possible the same factory could be making instruments and stamping some "Yamaha" and others "Eastman".

True and false: All Yamaha tubas are still made in Japan. No Eastman instruments are made by Yamaha Indonesia.

[toobagrowl]

All Yamaha tubas are still made in Japan. No Eastman instruments are made by Yamaha Indonesia.

+1

I have told this to bloke several times now, but it's like talking to a brick wall....

[LCTuba89]

The Holton 345 had a really glorious sound. Would be nice if Wessex or somebody cloned a nice playing example. Miraphone makes a really nice large piston B flat, the 1291. Only the best funded programs can afford it. However the 1291 and the non compensating version of the Hirsbrunner have been cloned. Both are compact for the large size of the tuba. These would be good for schools with modest budgets.

Big Mouth Brass IMO makes the best BBb 6/4 piston tuba on the market right now. Very few intonation issues, but the horn is big, and I mean BIG. The J-764LQ is their cheapest BBb 6/4 and I play mine regularly. The Holton 345, if you can find one, is a mixed bag and most of the time they are bad because the good ones get gobbled up quick and they are usually kept for a long time. The BMB BBb 6/4 is a powerhouse for around $7K, and it shakes everything. Wessex is actually developing a BBb 6/4 of their own with an independent 5th valve. I can't wait to hear people's impressions of it, or even play it myself.

[tubaben]

I agree with those, including Dan, who have mentioned long term durability and ease of repair as major factors in considering a tuba for a school. I would personally add the Meinl-Weston 25 to the list. They're a bit of a bear for some kids to play (i.e. a tad big) and the mid register is fairly stuffy, but along with the Kings and Miraphones they have a proven long term track record. An important caveat currently, though, is that parts are much harder to order since the Buffet buyout.

On the other hand, I would stay away from the St. Pete's. I have no problem with how they play, and the newer ones are certainly better than those from decades before. The metal, though, is so thin that they don't stand up very well to the typical level of abuse present in a high school bandroom. Long term, it's a much better investment to spend good money on a good horn that will last. It's hard to get administrators to think that long term, though (shocking, right?).

We have a lot of rural schools out here in Iowa where decisions are made in a much smaller chain of bureaucracy. The benefit of this is that I have been able to sell some really nice used instruments to these schools or do major repairs on older but quality instruments.

Ben Creswell
Grady Instrument Service

[Scubatuba]

Ben- Thank you for pointing out the Meinl Weston 25. It is a big BBb rotor horn (41"), and I would like to add the B&S GR51 to the fray as it is a little shorter at 39", and has a stout bell flare, and plays really well at a price point below the 186 (I think).

Also- if you need help with parts at Buffet, let me know, I think I know someone there......and real people answer the phone!

Finally, sad that the music programs get left in the dust funding wise. We get stuck in 1980's dollars and are left with nothing. Maybe this year we won't need new shoulder pads and helments, but you can have that discussion with the administration..........

[toobagrowl]

I agree about the M-W 25 BBb. Plays great and is well-made. Great for high school and college. So are the B&S PT-1 and VMI 103. I'm sure the GR-51 is really nice, too. I almost think those tubas are too nice for high school, and better for college. And those tubas are expensive. I also like the Cerveny 681, but it may be a bit "delicate" for high school use.

I think the piston-valved 4/4 King 2341 and Jupiter 1110 are better for high school.

I believe this picture demonstrates that this is not the typical $1XXX - $2XXX Chinese tuba (and no it isn't; it costs more than double that...but less than half of a $10K no-case M-W 25).

I'm sure the JP M-W 25 copy is a nice tuba. But why are the linkage arms, particularly on the 1st & 2nd valves, not screwed in all the way

[Daniel C. Oberloh]

Yamaha, B&S, VMI, Cerveny, St. Pete, MW, anything made in main land China… even Jupiter… parts, parts, PARTS!!!!! can you get the stupid firkin PARTS!! ??? And if so….WHERE!!!

…will they be available in twenty years?

Say your in Jerk Water, Kansas or Seattle, Washington; Try ordering older Cerveny or B&S linkage parts or a replacement nickel silver valve cap for that 20 year old VMI 3/4 rotary tuba. You will grow very old waiting for Buffet Group to come to the rescue. I might be able to pull it off, given enough time but thats because I have close friend in Germany who have connections and they are willing to help me out in a pinch. Do you speak Czech?. In such instances,most shops will be forced to jump thru a bunch of hoops and probably get nowhere (see: time suck). Need a piston for the No Name sousaphone that came in last month from the eBay dealer in China? What a great deal, except the the valves all have no. 3 pistons in them. Where to get a no. 1 & 2? Are they in the Allied catalog? of corse not ya dope!

Instruments with metric threads are also an issue in the US because, even if the repair shop has a lathe and can single point cut screw threads and make a replacement, the ol Atlas aint set up to cut metric and I bet ya, the shop is not real interested in setting up the machine for little ol you, to make you a single valve cap without you coughing up a butt load of cash to get them to do it.

I recommend instruments that are a time tested and proven. Playability, repairability and can stand up to multiple overhauls in their lifetime. Future valve rebuilds are also something to take into consideration (stainless pistons are not good candidates for valve jobs and must be replaced with oversize pistons [that can be a SERIOUS problem]). Rotor bearing configuration; this can be an issue if it is not configured for conventional repair shop tooling (more food for thought).

Daniel C. Oberloh
Oberloh Woodwind and Brass Works
http://www.oberloh.com" target="_blank

[bisontuba]

Question? Why is Buffet impossible to get parts from? Since it seems EVERY repair person has them at or near the the top of their list, do they: not listen? not care? just too big these days? What is their problem?

[roweenie]

I'm not a repairman (professional or otherwise), but I've got to imagine, in some instances, it's more cost effective to replace out-of-round (or crushed) tubing, rather than try to repair it.

Does a large company like Meinl Weston (or Buffet, or whatever) manufacture their own tubing, or do they source it out from a larger supplier? If so (to the latter), it seems to me that the tubing must be available from another source. After all, these are standard metric sizes, aren't they?

[Billy M.]

I agree. Completely.

That was an awful lot of screed that I typed to agree with...completely...

Typo. I DISagree completely with everything you've ever written, typed, said, or thought.

I blame this on poor lifestyle choices and a rough childhood where you didn't get beef jerky when you really wanted it.

[Donn]

Again, the Chinese TUBING is JUST FINE.

Checked for radioactivity?