20/21J vs. 24/25J

[tubapix]

Is the 4th valve worth the price/weight difference? How does the 4 valve sound in the pedal register? Do they sound as impressive as they look in that register? What is the tuning like in this register? If it is off, could a 5th valve be added to compensate?

[hbcrandy]

The very first tuba that I played in High School was a Conn 21J. It had a big, open dark sound in all of the registers I could reach as a beginner. The low register was very good. That was 1967 - 1969.

I switched to CC tuba in 1976 and haven't played a BBb since in that I mentally divorced BBb fingerings. But, as an experienced player of 40 years and private performance teacher, I believe that all tubas should have at least 4 valves if only to facilitate intonation. It also gives you access to the low register that on the 3 valved BBb tuba stops at E natural. All 4 valved tubas do not have the 1/2 step above the fundimental on them. In the case of the BBb tuba, that is low B natural. That can be gotten, more or less, as a privileged tone by fingering second and third valve.

My advice, for what is worth is, if you want to seriously play the tuba and you are interested in the Conn 20 - 25J series, get a 4 valved tuba. You won't regret it.

[mlorrison]

I have a 25J and best purchase ever! I learn how to play on a 20J but I bought several 2X series tubas and loved them. I play in a brass band and you can tell when and when I'm not there playing. Has a solid, bold, intense sound for pieces like Processional to Elsa's Cathedral.

[Donn]

I switched to CC tuba in 1976 and haven't played a BBb since in that I mentally divorced BBb fingerings.

Would it be fair to say that the step up from BBb to C makes a rather significant difference in how often the fourth valve is useful? It sure would for me. I have much more call for F an octave below the staff, than Eb, in particular.

[Three Valves]

I trust my thoughts are well documented...

[TheGoyWonder]

It's 3 valve top action. It's practically a non-chromatic instrument. 1-2-3 B is going to be useless. 123 E you might flop down to, maybe not.

You also can't get away with setting 3rd long or your F# will be closer to F. You also might like 3rd valve short to get a D because 12 D is sharp.

4th combinations with two other valves were not overwhelmingly satisfactory, I've had much better. False tones were much better. Would not screw around with 5th valve.

But 20J's sound just like 25J's so it's a good way to test the waters. Easy to resell too. Also beware BATs come in and out of style in cycles and we're on a downslope. And band directors usually hate them.

[b.williams]

1) Is the 4th valve worth the price/weight difference?
Yes. The 4th valve can be used to correct intonation and extend the low register. .

2) How does the 4 valve sound in the pedal register?
It can sound great. Each horn is different. I am getting very good results but it has taken me a few years of daily practice.

3) Do they sound as impressive as they look in that register?
The low register with 4th valve has a different feel/resistance. The 4th valve low register needs to be developed. Once a player figures it out the tuba will produce awesome low sounds.

4) What is the tuning like in this register?
Tuning is like any other non-compensating 6/4 BBb tuba. My tuba can be played in tune. But it takes a lot of work. The top action valves allow me to move the main tuning slide with my left hand while playing.

5) Could a 5th valve be added to compensate?
I leave this one to the Franken horn gurus.

I have tried many a brand and many a key of tuba. The 2_J tubas produce the sound that I love. I accept all of the idiosyncrasies in order to make that sound. I have and continue to work every day to overcome the quirks. (They are very much like a high maintenance spouse or girlfriend)

[GC]

I've played a good number of 20J's owned a 25J, and have played a couple of more 24/25J's. The fourth valve is always a great addition even though it adds about three pounds to the weight.

My biggest problem with the 24/25J is that the false tones are not nearly as good as on the 20/21J. There's a big increase in stuffiness and sharpness with low Db and C, and the B is not accessible with 4th valve fingerings without slide pulling, not an easy thing on these horns. It's a rare thing to need those notes, but it's still an issue for me. On a good 20J, those false tones pop right out and have almost as good a tone as regular notes.

[Donn]

I never played either one (though it was a close thing - when I got my first tuba, the seller had a couple beater 20Js), but the 20J was a very popular tuba. For what they were for, the 4th valve wasn't essential at all. The question is, what's yours for? If it's the same band repertoire, probably it's the same story.

[tubapix]

I played a 20J in high school (mumble) years ago and remember the sound it could produce. (2 of us actually marched with them!) The horns I currently have (see signature) work well but It is easy for me to over blow them. I have been playing 4 valve tubas for (cough cough) years now and am used to the inherent tuning issues and individual tuba idiosyncrasies so a 4 valve is preferable especially for the B natural. The biggest problem I have with either horn is I cannot adjust the slides individually which is why I asked about a 5th valve. Has anybody ever done or even heard of this being done? Also, what about a main slide tuning lever? Do you feel the slide is long enough for this?

P.S. I am currently a proud member of an 80+ piece concert band and there are currently 3 tuba players of which I am the youngest and the other 2 are 85 and 95(!!!) years young! I hope to be as good as they are at their age!

[LCTuba89]

I'd say it is worth the price/weight increase. I couldn't imagine playing my tuba with only 3 valves, the low B and E naturals would suck horribly. If a 3 valve upright piston tuba had a trigger for the 1st valve slide, then I would probably consider using it. I would still want a 1st slide trigger on a 25J horn simply for 5th partial intonation adjustments, but in a band context that's less of an issue since almost all the valved instruments aside from French Horn have similar intonation tendencies. If I hadn't bought my BMB I would've probably got a 25J, but I'm used to front action valves at this point in my life.

[SousaWarrior9]

For me personally, the false tones project well enough and are in tune enough on my 20J that I don't think a 4th valve is necessary, especially with the extra weight and resistance it adds, but that's just how it is for me. If you'd rather have the 4th valve then go for it. Similarly, I dont think adding a 5th valve is necessary for the same reasons. If you're worried about slide pulling, there are front action versions of the 20J/24J (the 23J and 26J) that are easier to pull slides on, although they are a bit harder to come by.

[edsel585960]

I have owned both 21 and 25 J's. I loved the 25 but for the type of playing I do (German band, community band), I really did not need the 4th valve and sold the horn with an extra recording bell I had as a 24 J (kept the upright bell) . I'm able to lip up or down with the 21 easily enough. The 4th valve is always nice for improved intonation. I keep a cbb 681 around just in case I want to play with a 4 valve horn but most of my horns are 3 valves. Play on!

[edsel585960]

I trust my thoughts are well documented...

You said it brother!