Besson CC 3+1 compensated.

[Rumblebuffin]

Hello,
Does anyone out there own a Besson 3+1 Compensating CC tuba?
(To all intents and purposes it resembles either a bigger right-facing Besson EEb or a slightly smaller BBb-rather than the modern Nirschl inspired 5v front action Besson 995.)
If you do, I'd be very interested to hear from you to pick your brains about it & also to
see any pictures you might have.

I'm experimenting with a cut-down 1960 (Formerly) high-pitch Besson BBb & would like to see how the factory instrument compares.
The only one of these instruments in the UK was played by Paul Lawrence in the London Philharmonic until his retirement in the mid/late 1980's and it was sold some time ago.
I understand one was sold by Dillon's over ten years ago...
Any pointers gratefully received!!!

[imperialbari]

Never heard about factory made Besson CC 3+1P compers.

At least one TubeNetter 10 or 15 back had a top valved 3 piston CC comper made by the Besson factory.

Klaus

[bigboymusic]

The one they had at Dillons was wonderful! Like they said though, hard to blow the other direction...

[barry grrr-ero]

I don't know where I got it from, but I tried one about 20 years ago that was so out-of-tune that I sent it back. The owners must have known because it was very inexpensive - less than $3,000, as I recall. They made no fuss about my returning it.

As I recall (sorry to be redundant), it had the stock lead-pipe and receiver, which took the smaller British taper shank. Perhaps a bigger pipe and a Morris taper receiver might have helped, but I think it was just a lemon. Bottom line: try before you buy.

Paul Lawrence of the LPO recorded ALL of the Mahler symphonies with Klaus Tennstedt on his Besson 3+1 CC, so there must be something to them.

Barry Guerrero
_________________
VMI rotary Neptune CC + Cronhite leather bag = trips to the Chiropractor

[Alex C]

I had Besson CC 3+1 on approval for about a week in the last century. I thought it was a really good horn, MUCH better than the Besson BBb's. If I were looking for a 4/4 CC I would consider the Besson but if I had a student looking for one I would tell him "no way." Resale would be difficult.

[Rumblebuffin]

Thanks everyone for your insights & thoughts.
This is very much a curiosity driven experiment on what was-for me-a cheap & professionally useless instrument.
I'm not under many illusions as to how it will compare to modern instruments-but I am interested in the sound/tone qualities it will have.
In my youth I was a Besson BBb player in the Desford Colliery band, and the other BBb player was by common consent one of the very best-Dean Morley.
His playing of this particular instrument for me(Along with Derek Jackson-Black Dyke Mills & John Gillam-Brighouse & Rastrick) represents the magnificent results that could be achieved on what most agree was an unwilling brute of a tuba...
John Fletchers quote: 'From the outset, I was unable to get a satisfactory result from this instrument'-speaks reassuring volumes to the rest of us!!!!
So-I suppose what I'm trying to do is find an extension of the Besson EEb sound....
I'll let you know how I get on.....though I'm lucky enough to have two decent contrabass instruments should this prove a 'Dogs breakfast'...

[Paul Scott]

I played the factory Besson CC that was at Dillon Music in the early 2000s and I have a photo and serial # somewhere. It played very nicely and was a comfortable size.

[cjk]

I have heard of a couple 3+1 Besson CCs and also of a couple of 3 valve Besson compensated Cc tubas.

I'd be interested in owning and playing any of the above.

[Paul Scott]

I agree with Bloke: more like a small BBb.

[pjv]

I don't get the "bell facing the wrong direction" comments.
Are you telling me that when tuba players in Britain play a piece on Eb the entire orchestra has to sit in a different chair then when they play pieces on a "normal" CC tuba?
If this is the only criteria for not purchasing an instrument (that one deems as superior) then why not just play it with the bell pointing straight up (on a stand, on your leg, whatever)?
As long as it gets the job done out in the hall I seriously doubt that anyone really cares if the bell is pointing left, right, upwards or backwards.

[Rumblebuffin]

I rest most all of the top-action tubas on my left leg...' no big deal.

IF (??) someone has one of the factory CC Besson 3+1 comp.tubas - and would like to have a bit of repair work done - I'd love for you to bring it by. I'd like to give it a toot and take some measurements/pictures.
Yeah...I often sound like I don't want people to bring repair work to me, but that really isn't true: I just don't want people to ~ship~ repair work to me. Further, I'm good, but I don't overcharge - to which those who've been here will attest...and I don't ever insist on getting any more "involved" with a repair job than any instrument's owner specifically requests. Do I want to take on add-a-valve, cut-to-CC, or complete-relacquer jobs with others' instruments? I've found it to be in my own best interests - and perhaps those of most instruments' owners - to try to avoid taking on repair jobs that require more than one workday's time to complete.

Well: I'll certainly send you some pictures and some measurements when this particular instrument is 'chopped'.
One of the interesting features of the project-so far- has been finding out that Besson BBb's are a good deal more conical than they look! (Though clearly not as conical as equivalent pitched American & European instruments.)
The other is-despite starting with a high-pitched instrument (and being about a 3rd of the way to C) just how much tubing has to be lost. (I do understand that you chaps have much more experience of doing Bb/C cut downs, but I can imagine a low pitch cut could become quite a handful..)
Finally-having found some further info on the factory instruments; it would appear that Besson actually produced some CC's from cut down high pitched BBb's and others that had a completely new bell, bottom bow and first & second branch. (Utilising a BBb valve block & cut slides.) These latter instruments look just like the BBb-though obviously smaller & tighter in wrap.
This isn't as perverse as it might appear, as Besson did exactly the same with F tubas from the late '50's until production ceased in the early '60's.
More to follow....

[Wyvern]

Wessex Tubas are looking at making a compensated CC tuba using our TB570 Excelsior as a basis. That has a long leadpipe with main tuning slide in leadpipe before the valve block. Replacing that with a regular compensated Eb leadpipe will get the open bugle down to very near to CC in pitch without any cutting of tapered tubing to cause intonation problems. Then just a matter of shortening valve slides in length to have a 5/4 compensated 3+1 CC.

[Rumblebuffin]

A couple of months ago I made a post about embarking on a particular project....
A few of you kindly chipped in with your thoughts & insights-and one gentleman most helpfully sent me some very useful photos of his CC that were particularly interesting.
Warmest thanks!
Well.... Phase one of the project is now complete & I thought I'd share a couple of photos of ' Where it's at'.
So far, I don't imagine that this particular revelation to an unsuspecting world will result in a catastrophic collapse in the sales figures of B&S, Meinl or Hirsbrunner any time soon, but it's better than I'd dared to imagine....

https://flickr.com/photos/147834171@N07 ... 5937615343" target="_blank

[MTFULRUTUBA]

I had a friend that owned one.

He studied with John Sizemore of SC through the early to mid 1990's. Mr. Sizemore was a student of Arnold Jacobs. When in need of a tuba, Mr. Jacobs sold/gave this Besson CC tuba 3+1 to Mr. Sizemore and it remained in his possession for quite a while. At some point, mid-1990's maybe(?), Sizemore had it over-hauled (by whom I haven't a clue) but the horn looked like it came straight from the factory when returned. Didn't appear to be a cut horn to me, but I didn't study it very closely either. My friend then received this horn in trade for the CC tuba he owned at the time. As far as I know, haven't asked him even though we stay in touch, my friend still owns this horn. He was attempting to get some form of provenance of ownership from Mr. Jacobs right around the time Mr. Jacobs passed.

My recollections were that the tuba played well enough. Intonation was solid, response was good, but terribly uncomfortable for me to play due to the configuration of the 3+1. Of course, my buddy was taller and skinnier than me. Plus, he sounded great on it. Hope this is of some use.

[Rebel]

I don't get the "bell facing the wrong direction" comments.
Are you telling me that when tuba players in Britain play a piece on Eb the entire orchestra has to sit in a different chair then when they play pieces on a "normal" CC tuba?
If this is the only criteria for not purchasing an instrument (that one deems as superior) then why not just play it with the bell pointing straight up (on a stand, on your leg, whatever)?
As long as it gets the job done out in the hall I seriously doubt that anyone really cares if the bell is pointing left, right, upwards or backwards.

I fully agree with this statement. In our band one of our players has a Yamaha YBB-641 facing to the left and the other player and I both have top action tubas facing to the right. We have no issues with being in the wrong chair. We all have our bells facing upright and play well together. The only issue I can see on horn choice is if UNIFORMITY is required.... or is it CONFORMITY??

[GC]

There was a thread here last year about this topic relating to orchestras. I remember two issues: 1. does the bell face more toward the back of the hall rather than toward the audience, and 2. does the bell point toward or away from a microphone installation that causes issues for PA or recording engineers? Both these situations may cause problems that can require adjustments, and if the folks in charge aren't willing to adjust, guess who takes the blame.

[Wyvern]

I know in UK at some venues, there is objection to left (from player) facing bell if there is overhanging balcony, as the sound goes up underneath and not projecting over orchestra.

[thejester10276]

One just popped up at BBC