History on old sousaphone: Metro - Lockie Music Exchange?

[Beervangelist]

I've been playing an old sousaphone stamped with Metro-Lockie Music Exchange on the bell. At this point, I haven't found a serial number, but would love to know a year.

I haven't been able to find much about who may have made it, or much anything else.

I did find this story from a grandson of the owner who opened the store in the 1920s, but it's all about the transition to Rico Reeds https://www.namm.org/library/oral-histo ... mas-lockie" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

I'll head down the trail, but thought I'd see what all you wise Tubanetters knew.

I'm new to the board, btw - but enjoying looking around, and appreciate what y'all have goin on here!

Thanks in advance!

Cheers

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1zwji7f38djcd ... p.jpg?dl=0" target="_blank

[Beervangelist]

A picture would help the board members ID the horn. Stencil instruments are stamped with all sorts of names, but usually come from one of the big companies.

Welcome to the boards.

Thanks Lost -

I was having trouble uploading an attachment, so I added a dropbox link of a shot from a gig. I'll get another one of the horn by itself.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1zwji7f38djcd" target="_blank ... p.jpg?dl=0

[Beervangelist]

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ozgrhvj922ann ... 1.JPG?dl=0" target="_blank

https://www.dropbox.com/s/hls5e1z83p6xo ... 9.JPG?dl=0" target="_blank

Here's some more. Haven't figured out the best way to get photos on here, unless they're already up on the web.

Cheers

[roweenie]

Looks like a York.

[Heliconer]

Looks like a York.

+1

[imperialbari]

Is that halo on the first photo related to the ‘-evangelist’ element of your screen name?

[windshieldbug]

From a Horn-u-copia trumpet record

7496 Trumpet Lockie 1960s LOCKIE Music House Bore: .459 Made in Los Angeles super light 2 lb 1 oz!! "Lockie Music House apparently in the late 50s formed a company Novatek......and made horns........probably went through the 60s and maybe into the early 70s.....one look and its easy to tell that they were copied from Olds horns.....and I am speculating that someone at Olds probably ran this factory....there are the similarities....waterkeys that take the super small corks.... the valves.....ARE IDENTICAL!!!!....this set up allows them to be interchangeable"

[Beervangelist]

These for sale ads make me think it could be King made, but I don't have the eye for technical stuff that a lot of you do.

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=74402&p=597907&hili ... ne#p597907" target="_blank

viewtopic.php?f=4&t=74207&p=596546&hili ... ne#p596546" target="_blank

The lead-pipe comes up through in a similar way, and the valve structure seems similar too.

I'm going to refresh my hunt for a serial number and see what else I can find out.

[roweenie]

My determination was made primarily on the brace feet.

However, your pictures are somewhat low-resolution; at first, I thought the brace feet might look like King (at a distance, later York brace feet look similar to King ones). The branch ferrule on the top also looks like it might be King, but then again, they are very similar to York ones, too. If you can, make a high-res close-up photo of one of the braces.....

Did you look on the 2nd valve casing for the serial number? That's where the serial number is usually stamped (on U.S.A.-made horns, anyway).

(Then again, whoever made the horn could have theoretically used another supplier for their braces? Also, although York branch ferrules look very similar to King ones, there is a very slight, but noticeable difference.)

[imperialbari]

Böhm & Meinl BBb sousaphone:

[roweenie]

I think Joe wins the kewpie doll (again)....

[Beervangelist]

I'm certainly learning some distinctive properties of this old horn...

New terms to me, which address some lingering questions I've had include: the "2 top crooks in the third loop" (from here: viewtopic.php?f=2&t=44601" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank) This doesn't rule out B&M or King, but may eliminate a few others.

Any ideas on the tuning implications on how to use this? I've been confused when looking to adjust the third valve, as both slides are functioning. Suggestions for practical applications to two slides on the same valve?

Here are some closer, higher-res photos.
Gooseneck Closeup
https://www.dropbox.com/s/atif87fb8ivr2 ... 6.jpg?dl=0" target="_blank

Valve Set and Third Loop
https://www.dropbox.com/s/cp3u7hqmh4oql ... 0.jpg?dl=0" target="_blank

Body
https://www.dropbox.com/s/atif87fb8ivr2 ... 6.jpg?dl=0" target="_blank

And no one has mentioned Conn yet, but I did come across this photo on Horn-u-copia:

Conn - 1942
http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php ... nn-38k.jpg" target="_blank
Which looks like it has the signature inside loop, similar gooseneck and valve set.

Bohm-Meinl
http://www.horn-u-copia.net/picture.php ... -Sousa.jpg" target="_blank


You think you're getting closer...

Either way, it's playing well, and likely into its 6th or 7th decade or more...

[roweenie]

I've got to say that those braces look exactly like the later style York braces - there really is no mistaking them.





I suppose anything is possible, but could B & M have had "old new stock" York parts that they were using to build their horns? The
B & M/Yorkmaster braces I've seen look nothing like those....

[Beervangelist]

A comparable York:

http://www.oberloh.com/sales/yorksousaphone.jpg" target="_blank

and another...

http://www.galvanizedjazz.com/tuba/sousaphone.html" target="_blank

[imperialbari]

Didn’t those braces get their shape from being rolled by a certain tool after their feet/flanges had been soldered to the tubing?

When Böhm & Meinl started making their York Master lines after American designs, couldn’t they have strived for the same shape of the braces?

[roweenie]

Didn’t those braces get their shape from being rolled by a certain tool after their feet/flanges had been soldered to the tubing?

When Böhm & Meinl started making their York Master lines after American designs, couldn’t they have strived for the same shape of the braces?

Maybe earlier on, as the YMs I've seen don't look like that.

As I said, anything is possible.....

[Beervangelist]

Didn’t those braces get their shape from being rolled by a certain tool after their feet/flanges had been soldered to the tubing?

When Böhm & Meinl started making their York Master lines after American designs, couldn’t they have strived for the same shape of the braces?

After reviewing Imperialbari's posts on this other thread: viewtopic.php?uid=460951&f=2&t=70620&start=0" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank, I feel the Bohm & Meinl York Masters in his gallery are the closest I've seen so far.
https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Yor ... _396262028" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank


https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/Yor ... Filter=ALL#" target="_blank

Would it be feasible to consider it a stenciled B&M York Master that could have been made/assembled in either Germany or Grand Rapids? I may be rooting for the Grand Rapids connection, as it now resides within an hour of there, and I like the idea of it hitting stages in its home town.

I have no idea how to date it, but it would seem from what I've read, it would be between 1945 and 1970 (a big span, but I don't have much to narrow it down, other than the York Master time period. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/York_Band ... nt_Company" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

Thanks for the input - opinions for or against are welcome.

[Beervangelist]

Photobucket rediscovered

My horn:

[roweenie]

I'm not interested at all in "defending my guess", but I have a bucket of those brace socket flanges (and no, I ain't sellin' any of 'em) that Herr Nirschl sold to me years ago...identical in appearance to York.

Those casings and caps look Boehm-&-Meinl-ish as well.

bloke "remarks, not defense. It ain't mine, so why should I care if I'm right about what it is? "

Are you upset that you didn't get the kewpie doll that was promised?

I think Joe wins the kewpie doll (again)....

[Beervangelist]

The plot thickens..

I found a serial number, 26706, but not surprisingly, it doesn't match anything I've found so far in the York world.