Leadpipe off and on the bell, and resonance?

[Michael Bush]

It's common to read about lifting a leadpipe of a bell in order to increase resonance. I've been skeptical, wondering if it really made that much difference.

Now I *think* I've had the opposite experience, which would suggest I was wrong before, but in a paradoxical way. I took a brace out and soldered a leadpipe directly to the bell. After a couple of weeks with the new setup I believe this tuba is more responsive and resonant this way.

Placebo effect? Or has anyone else had this experience?

[TUbajohn20J]

That's odd to me. I've played a couple of horns with the leadpipe soldered to the bell and then floated, before and after, and was able to tell a slight difference. My tech just floated my leadpipe on my Conn and I can feel a difference.

[Michael Bush]

I think that's probably right, Joe. It does feel different (better, to me as the player). I'm 99.8% certain no one in the audience would notice.

[Dan Schultz]

Depends on what you call 'resonance'. Seems to me that most folks confuse the terms 'vibration' and 'resonance' as being the same or similar. I think how the horn sounds and feels to the player can make a difference in how the player 'handles' a horn. That in turn COULD make a difference in how a horn sounds to others.

[dwerden]

This is a confusing topic for me, because the "rules" seem to keep changing! I had always heard that off-the-bell would give you better response. And in the euphonium realm, the first horn I tried with that design (A Besson 967GS) did seem to have better response than my own 967, which had a soldered leadpipe. I could not tell for sure what the effect on tone was, but I heard that tone would be a bit lighter.

Now I'm playing an Adams, which has the best response of any horn I've tested... but it's leadpipe is soldered on!!

So I think it's like hi-fi speaker design. You can talk all day with engineers (amateur or pro) about benefits of fewer or more speakers in the cabinet (I have owned 2-way, 3-way, 4-way, and 5-way speakers), and the related topic of crossover design. Then you can argue about acoustic suspension vs. ported design. And on and on. But back when I was seriously into this stuff, I learned that you can't know what you'll hear until you listen to it - the specs just won't help you much.

In instrument design there are many factors at work. The sound/feel is the result of all the pieces' interactions. In an ideal world you would try all the horns available, perhaps ignorant of their design choices (blindfolded??) and then make your choice. Of course, that ain't going to happen. So we just try our best to keep an open mind and judge by the results.

[bort]

Maybe it goes both ways?

Some people go add tone rings, metal strips, belts, and other stuff to dampen the bell. Maybe soldering on the leadpipe in those cases is a good thing?

[pjv]

Dan describes it very clearly so maybe read it again.
And Bloke also.
What you hear from your horn affects how you play. Obvious, right? So if a gold brass bell gives "your ears" a better reference in the situations "you play in" then it's gold brass for you (personally I don't hear the difference, haha). The audience won't hear a difference other then that you are playing better because you can hear yourself better (and are thus relaxing, having more fun, etc).
One of the thing top of the line carbon fiber instrument designers are battling with is reference. The instrument sounds like a trumpet/trombone/ whatever to the listener. It's the player that can't hear what they need to play music. So they are experimenting with exactly where they need to put brass. Hand grip, goose neck, etc.
The other thing our colleagues have mentioned is how the instrument was built. If and when a tuba is well assembled then we could therorize about if the balance between bracing, bends and tensions works for that particular tuba and/or the players ears. Some people like easy blowing horns. Others like an instrument that gives more resistance. Again very subjective and often personal.
Fact of the matter is that after years of tubas with leadpipes raised and leadpipes soldered both seem to work. It all depends on that magic that made the tuba work in the first place. Design+Assembly+Player.
Ps. If ain't broke, ask yourself what it is you want to fix.

[opus37]

A few years back, I brought my 1912 Martin Eb to Lee Stofer for a play restoration. At the time, I asked about desoldering and lifting the lead pipe off the bell. He said, "not for this horn." From this statement, it appears that this change sometimes affects the player's perception or feel, but sometimes it is inherent to the design of the horn and should not be done. I would suggest to those considering this type of change consult an experienced tech who has knowledge of the potential issues involved.

[Wyvern]

Two instances in the past convinced me that off the bell was better. First was two Eb tubas of a batch arrived without the leadpipe soldered onto bell - presumably a manufacturing error (before we checked every tuba at factory). Those two tubas played noticeably better than the rest of the batch which were identical otherwise.

Then when Wessex was developing the Bb ophicleide we were concerned that the leadpipe (bocal to ophicleide players) was too easily bent sticking out, so got the factory to solder on strengthening strip. After the strip was added, it completely killed the residence of the instrument - that was both listening and when playing. It was easy to make side by side comparison by attaching two different necks to the same ophicleide. Needless to say we got the strengthening removed.

From these two incidents I concluded off the bell was better. However Sam Gnagey is equally convinced that soldered to bell is better. So when he designed his Eb for Wessex he insisted the leadpipe be soldered to bell. I must confess it seems to have no detrimental effect on the horns playing. So in the end I don't know how great an effect soldered on, or off bell has?

[Michael Bush]

This tuba (a 410) was clearly *too* resonant in one sense: it had an after-ring like a sousaphone with too big a bell. The C in the staff continued to sound after certain notes. So I put the leadpipe on the bell to try to stop that. It helped but didn't completely stop it. But I began to think the tuba responded more readily and sounded better throughout the range. I waited a couple of weeks to post about it, because I didn't want to jump to conclusions. And it isn't by any means a miracle. Bloke's suggestion that it is easy to deceive oneself about this sort of thing is on point. I'm pretty sure the player experience is better this way, though, and I agree with Dan's view that this may make the audience experience better as a side effect.

Not much is at stake in any of this, I just thought it was interesting and worth throwing in the hopper.

[MackBrass]

It all depends on the model and design of the horn. Some work better on the bell and some better off the bell. Would I take a brand new 15k tuba and move it off the bell for the chance of a 2% improvement? No. Does this work across the board with all models? No. Is this worth experimenting on a horn? Maybe.

I put this in the same class as striping lacquer to improve the sound, not worth it.

[Michael Bush]

This is not one of yours, Tom. Tuba Exchange.

[Uncle Markie]

Don Butterfield who altered many tubas during his career (like pretty much every horn he ever owned) was a firm believer in getting the leadpipe off the bell as much as possible. Oddly, he also believed in his nickel-silver pushrods that kill off a lot of natural response in King instruments. Don was frequently frustrated by factory mouthpiece receiver placement that left him blocked by the the instrument when attempting to see the conductor.

Some horns do suffer from too much solder on the bell - up to and including too many big braces and too much solder on the leadpipe. I've tried the "leadpipe off the bell" on a King, and it worked - to a degree. The instrument (a 1921 1240) did respond a little easier. There is an offset in increased fragility of the instrument too.

Some horns - with oversize mounting plates for braces, etc. present a large area with a lot of solder - a dead spot. Certain trumpets have been vastly improved by relocating bell braces, reducing the size of bell braces and in some cases removing the bell brace altogether. Some of this applies to tubas too I suppose. I've always thought the soldered on "wreath" on some European models was there to compensate for thin and usually soft brass the bell was made of - to keep the sound from "breaking up" on loud playing.

Neither of my Martins have been altered in that manner, and neither have much solder attaching the leadpipes to the bell either. I confess to being too cautious to change them in any way - Martin generally got it right in the first place.

Mark Heter

[Michael Bush]

Well, anyway, I like this one this way. The Rudy might benefit from having the leadpipe raised, but I'm not going to be the one who finds out.