Tuning does the room matter?

[pjv]

About intonation and frequencies:
I used to play in a band with a bass player who played obsurdly loud and really loved pumping up the lows on his amp. He was on the back right of the stage and I was always on the front left. Often when we would jam I would be a half tone off(sorry, just can't remember if that was sharp or flat). This was something I had never ever had in any other situation. I can always hear what tone is being played. I solved it by having the bass on my monitor with all the lows taken off. My brain did the rest of the translation.
Another story that comes to mind was a "world music" festival I was playing at with some real A class groups from all over the world. At the stage I was at the singing was really out of tune, regardless of the group. Only the singing. Some of these groups I had heard at other festivals I had played at and they were impeccable, so something was happening that day. My assumption is that somehow the singers feedback washarmonically shaded, giving them different harmonic information then what they needed to sing in tune. Weird acoustic at the front middle of the stage? Monitors that favored certain harmonics? I've no idea. It was an interesting experience.

[timothy42b]

The bloke, as usual, is correct. One plays with their ears and chops, and the signal to change slide length is the feeling that it's becoming harder and harder to do so in tune.

In fact, pulling valve slides is actually for resonance, not for intonation.

Old thread, but............ isn't this the same thing?

You can lip a note into tune, or you can move a slide to get the note in tune. Lipping the note means you'll be playing away from pitch center. Usually the tone is most clear at pitch center.

[GC]

This is the best thread I've read in a while.

[Three Valves]

I can tell the color of the paint by the sound it makes drying!!

[Leland]

At a recent concert, the brass tuned down stairs in a small room (approx. 8 x12). When we went up to the church sancuary, we were noticeable flat. We retuned with the same tuner and everything was fine. The concert master was pleased. The temperature between the small room and upstairs was about the same and it affected trumpets, trombones and tuba. The only real difference was the size of the space. Does this make sense? Has anyone else experienced this effect?

I started this thread with the above information. We used the same electronic tuner. From this discussion, the room shouldn't have mattered. But it is the primary change. The electronic tuner was the primary judge of "in tune" in this case. The ear of several very good and experienced players was the secondary judge. They sensed that something was wrong so we retuned and found we were flat. So, this may be anecdotal or it may be a true phenomenon, I don't know. It doesn't seem to be something that others have noticed or experienced.

My guess is that you guys played differently once you got into the sanctuary.

Playing in a small space with the same quality—or quantity—of sound that you'd use in a large room is, at best, painful, and at worst, self-abusive. If your group can try it again and do some experimenting, I'd like to hear about it.

(I really don't think a Doppler effect had anything to do with it as you guys weren't running around the room while playing... I hope!)

[Leland]

love this...

I'm speaking from experience, too.

We didn't have to deal with it in a performance setting, but just when trying things in our rehearsal hall. At a moderately brisk walk (not even close to running), the wall in front (the one we were moving towards) gave an echo that was juuuuuust a bit high, and the echo from the back wall was juuuuust a bit low. From the player's position, it's like three equally-spaced pitches.

[Erik_Sweden]

Wonder how above apply for a marching band...

[Donn]

Good point! Everyone has probably heard that bagpipers like to walk while they play, to get away from the noise - but maybe it's just to compensate for pitch problems.

[windshieldbug]

maybe it's just to compensate for pitch problems.

People have this overpowering urge to use them as backstops...

[Leland]

Wonder how above apply for a marching band...

We started to wonder as soon as we noticed it.

Say, when some players are moving towards the audience, and others moving away -- would it be worth trying to correct for the pitch shift?

We decided that it was an axle not worth getting wrapped around, so to speak. It's hard enough to get pitch to stay stable while moving. At high tempos and large step sizes, maintaining a clean sound is the challenge, and saying, "Okay, remember to nudge your slip-slide in about 3 cents' worth for this set," would be ridiculous.

[imperialbari]

Some might say that the pitch discrepancies have to be there to support the visual impressions, so to say being a part of the style. Tuned percussion that moves around has no chamce of adapting their tuning on the fly, anyway.

Some say that the pitch raise that results from the hand-over-bell muting of big band trumpets and trombones is part of that muting effect.

Klaus

[Donn]

Wonder how above apply for a marching band...

We started to wonder as soon as we noticed it.

Say, when some players are moving towards the audience, and others moving away -- would it be worth trying to correct for the pitch shift?

We decided that it was an axle not worth getting wrapped around, so to speak.

I believe that was the right conclusion. You'd have to be moving awfully fast, even compared to those Italian military units - carabinieri? - who sprint but probably not fast enough for a noticeable Doppler effect.

[MaryAnn]

One of the frustrations I get playing with amateurs (since I no longer play my "professionally trained" instrument) is that the amateur listens to himself while the pro listens to the group. You'll see the amateur staring at his tuner on the stand, and stomping his foot to his internal rhythm, while chaos reigns. The pro (a violinist STILL needs to get the open strings in tune and the 5ths perfect, which can be a hassle at times; when they slide, open strings can't be used any more and some fingering nightmares can ensue) uses what is going on around her to determine pitch and rhythm. When you have a group of all pros, that is when you hear those performances that are pleasant to the ears.

[Leland]

I can tell you that even walking at a normal pace can make a perfectly in tune (as I just tuned it) pipe organ sound out of tune.
Stop walking, sounds fine.

Right -- you're hearing a lengthened wavelength behind you, and a shortened wavelength in front of you. Like, if you're walking away from the organ, the direct sound's wavelength is a hair longer, and the reflected sound from the wall ahead of you is a bit shorter (because the wall is "moving towards" you, relatively speaking).

[timothy42b]

One of the frustrations I get playing with amateurs (since I no longer play my "professionally trained" instrument) is that the amateur listens to himself while the pro listens to the group.

Weird coincidence. Last night I dreamed I was subbing with a new group on tuba, not my primary instrument; in fact it's been a while since I played one with a group. But I was determined to do well, and at least play tastefully - and then, I heard another tuba warming up, and realized to my horror that another amateur had showed up too, and he was playing Eb's so sharp I knew I could never play in tune with him, and we'd both look bad. I'm still cringing just thinking about it.

I know what he was thinking, though: I might be sharp, but that's better than being out of tune.

[Beervangelist]

This has been a really great thread - thank you all for the insight.

True Confessions:
I've been coming back over the last year and half, from a long tuba hiatus, and doing so on an old BBb sousaphone in a rock and roll setting. I discovered that a snark guitar tuner on the lead pipe worked as an easy way to see the tuner when practicing, and started to adopt it as a handy, stage tool/reference point.

I am very much in agreement with the philosophy of tuning to the group and making things harmonious and tempered, versus going for "correct" at a price. However, I also have some insecurities around whether my horn is in tune with itself and know that I'm at a disadvantage playing in guitar keys like B and E all the time, so being able to glance at the tuner on longer notes and see where I was, felt helpful. The guitar tuned to a tuner, too.....right?

As much as I'd like to say I wasn't creeping towards the "intonation by sight" crowd; on a recent gig, it just so happened that the guitar wasn't in tune, and when I noticed the problem, I will admit I looked at my tuner to check my pitch to see where I was/which one of us was off. While that might be an interesting discovery, it's not going to make things sound any better.

This thread has inspired and reminded me to spend the time with the tuner at home, get my horn in balance, and leave it in the case on the gig (the tuner, not the horn), so my first instinct can be used to support the music with my ears and lips, wherever we may have strayed to.

Tubenet for the win.

You guys also helped me find Jeffery Funderburk's Tuning Chart http://www.uni.edu/drfun/articles/tuning.html
and I'm ordering the Tune-up System as well, to get it all dialed in. http://tuneupsystems.com/Home_Page.html ... t="_blank"

Thanks all!

[imperialbari]

Playing in the keys of E and B natural on a 3 valve BBb sousaphone calls for some very active slide handling, if at all possible via the 1st valve top slide.

What about tuning the sousaphone down to A?

That would make the said keys so much more friendly, because aside of pulling the valve slides to fit the new key you could give the 3rd an extra pull to make E and B in tune, when fingered 13. That would make the fifth step in both keys in tune without pulling. The leading note for B nat (A# fingered 123) would be sharp in the low octave, but that could be worked around except where you might have fixed octave licks with the guitar in its low range.

I haven’t tried this down-tuning on any of my BBb instruments, because they all have 4 valves, but I have for a period tuned my Conn 26K Eb sousaphone down to D to test whether a certain musical idea could be realised while the 26K was my only brass instrument below the bassbones.

That took some extra tubing, but not as much as one would expect, because one branch of the main tuning slide was long enough for the semitone pull.

This suggestion is not without problems beyond getting the extra tubing:

Your ears may be so engrained with the BBb tuning that playing by ear on a differently pitched instrument will confuse you totally. No shame to that.

The sousaphone partials may be skewed tuningwise. But that should not be a major problem, as this change of pitch very much equals locking down the 2nd valve and then pulling the 1st and 3rd slides accordingly. This step could be your first in a test ride of the idea.

I don’t know whether your sousaphone is the small or the big variant from B&M. If it is the big one, the next step in the testing could be using bits of a 3/4" garden hose as the extra tubing. If this works well, and if you find ways to secure your main tuning slide from dropping off and from clanging against the sousaphone body, you may even have found your final solution.

Klaus