Rotary tubas and piston tubas in a section

[Tom]

My opinion...

It's not the horn(s)...it's the players.

You can give everyone in a section a matched set of horns (same make and model) and still have tremendous issues with intonation, articulation, dynamics, etc., etc., etc. just as you can have a section of every imaginable type of tuba that "clicks" and manages to play as a section without intonation, articulation and dynamic issues.

I don't believe seen a completely matched section outside of high school band in the United States. I don't even think the military bands I've seen in the last 10-15 years were all on matched horns. I know there are some brass bands that all match...haven't seen them, but my understanding is that this is more of a "volume purchase discount" or sponsorship by brand XYZ thing that it is truly an effort to homogenize the section. Same goes for some drum corps.

I think that the best section that I performed with was probably the most mis-matched in terms of tubas: One PT6p, one Gnagey York/King, and one Alexander 163. We all played the instruments we liked and came together to make it work as a section. It takes good players that are self-aware but also aware of what's happening around them so they're actively making an effort to be a section vs. one of three (or more) people that happen to be playing the same part on the same instrument. Playing as a section isn't something that we ever really discussed. We played what was written and when there were anomalies, we all went the way of doing it like the section principal.

The one thing above all else that makes section playing work is playing in time and playing as in tune as you possibly can as an individual. If there are three or four players that all have their own issues with that, getting them all together in a section can make for an absolute disaster.

Context matters, too. There are some situations where the section just is what it is and it isn't going to change for the better much. Sometimes the players are doing everything they can just to try to play the part and don't really have the capacity to even begin thinking about how it works with others. In those cases it is usually best to just play your part as well as you can and let it ride.

[poomshanka]

To echo what Tom said, here's an old post of mine:

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20294" target="_blank

Horn to horn, the differences were pretty consistent from player to player. For example, if one player sounded a bit brighter or darker on one horn relative to another, other players probably exhibited similar tendencies.

However...

Player to player, the differences were *quite* different from horn to horn. On any given axe, each player produced his own unique sound, oftentimes noticeably different from anyone else's.

To your original point of piston vs. rotary, most of the horns were piston. However, if you closed your eyes when someone was playing, you wouldn't necessarily be able to tell who was playing what. Another way of looking at it might be, say, a section of four identical model tubas (which of course can have their own variances from horn to horn), with four different players each producing their own unique sound.

It's the archer, not the arrow.

As always, just my $.02, your mileage may vary...

...Dave

[southtubist]

I've played in many mixed sections before, as well as playing in a (good) section where me and the only other player had identical horns/mouthpieces (we both had MW 2145's with Bloke Symphonies with #2 medium narrow rounded rims). It only matters if the other players aren't listening, and if they don't have a well defined sound concept.

I played alongside another player with an MW Baer with my Alex as a two man section in a large band, playing heavier literature. Contrary to what most people would do, I played the lower divisi despite having a smaller horn. We didn't look at equipment or anything like that- I just liked playing low stuff, and he liked this solo in the high divisi. That's how we made decisions- not based on equipment, but rather based on our preferences for the parts. It sounded great in the recordings because we listened to each other and played tastefully.

[bort]

I find that I prefer the all-rotary sound to the all-piston or mixed sound. Given the choice though, I really want to just play with a section of all strong players.

Best tuba section I've seen was a large band in Austria. I think it was 7 rotary tubas, and 1 odd man out British Eb. Combined with a full band of rotary trumpets, flugels, tenorhorns, etc.. And "just enough" woodwinds, it was a KILLER band with a TON of bass. All were great players, talk about a wall of sound! Nothing like it in the US that I have found.

[J.c. Sherman]

I find that I prefer the all-rotary sound to the all-piston or mixed sound. Given the choice though, I really want to just play with a section of all strong players.

Best tuba section I've seen was a large band in Austria. I think it was 7 rotary tubas, and 1 odd man out British Eb. Combined with a full band of rotary trumpets, flugels, tenorhorns, etc.. And "just enough" woodwinds, it was a KILLER band with a TON of bass. All were great players, talk about a wall of sound! Nothing like it in the US that I have found.

Come hear the Blossom Festival Band here in Cleveland next summer

Seriously, we've never had a a really matched section, and turnover is minimal. I usually play a Besson Eb. The others are on 5-6/4 tubas. We've had BBb Holtons and Yorks, Yorkbrunners, Nirschel-Yorks, PT-6Ps, Alex 164/163s, Yamaha 661s, Miraphone 186s, Rudy 5/4s, PT606s, PT6s, MW 2000s, and many other great beasts. It's great players who know their instruments and know what a unified section can be! It takes having a sound in your minds and players working diligently to make it happen.

I still pinch myself I get to play with these folks after 19 years.

[TUbajohn20J]

I guess I've never paid attention to the differences in sound of mixed sections. I do prefer piston over rotary though. Years ago my all state band pretty much consisted of all 4/4 rotary and piston horns all front action, and I brought my 6/4 top action (21J) and was seated right in the middle of the section. Other than the guys bell to my right keep banging into my horn, there weren't any issues. Nobody said anything except some of the other tuba players just wanted to play on it since it was a 6/4 horn. I've never had any real issues with mixed sections.

[tubeast]

I guess there are aspects to this Topic that should not be mixed:
"To blend well", "to form a well functioning section", and "To produce equal Sound Color" are not synonymous.

Those that struggle for perfect section work where it matters
(i.e. achieve highest rankings in band championships to attract high donations/Sponsoring as well as recruit the best future personnel ) tend to adhere to strict gear policies, to my knowledge.

In part, but not exclusively, this is due to contracts with their sponsors, of course.

Apart from that, section work will boil down to the following:
- define the kind of musical message that is to be delivered.
- find ways to express that message as efficiently as possible.

If that means a particular player should stand out with utmost clarity and the others should try to muffle their sounds - so be it.

[barry grrr-ero]

Not to disagree with Bloke, but I think "music" is what you - and everyone else - aims for first. Music is the goal. Everybody wants to talk about "intonation". But to me, you don't deal with intonation UNTIL everyone is on the right note at the right time - together! - with the right dynamics, and pretty much the same note lengths (and attacks, sure). Then it becomes far easier to fix pitch discrepancies when all these other criteria are met beforehand.

So often, many players become so worried about intonation - often times staring at a meter in the process - that they forget to make music and begin to sound like cautious, timid players who aren't making music. Fix everything else first, and the intonation will almost fix itself (by people listening to each other). If you're talking about a good size tuba section, then you'll need a fairly strong section leader.

The music is the most important 'thang'. Worrying about piston or rotary valves just becomes yet another distraction that can turn into another obstacle. The conductor should be instilling that thought as well.

[Lectron]

For me that's the same as asking"Different individuals in a section?"

[barry grrr-ero]

induuuhviduals?

[Lectron]

induuuhviduals?

Well.....I guess my English is more understandable than your Norwegian, so try to decipher it.
I trust you can do this if you put some effort in it.

[barry grrr-ero]

It appears that English also has too many words, so one should leave a few out, here and there. . . . I know I do (when I don't proofread).

[swillafew]

I had the chance this year to join one player for two concerts, then he left and I was joined by a new player. Both of the other two are conscientious, good players. One had a great deal of attention on the specific instructions in the music, and the other is more like me, willing to make some accommodations as I see fit.

I play a rotary BBb, and the other men play a piston BBb and a rotary CC. I think our personalities had way more to do with the sound than the horns themselves. I sit away from the other's bell and I think player number one heard more of me than he would have liked.