Decent BBb horns for commercial music?

[BopEuph]

I've been doing a lot of work with the 12J, and it will eventually need to be replaced. I do mostly commercial music (jazz/pop, etc.) for tuba, and wondered what was out there.

A big consideration for me is the weight. I like the fact that I can stand with the 12J without a strap; with the strap, it was giving me backaches.

Is a 5J a decent compromise, or is the 12J perfect for what I'm doing?

[Dan Tuba]

Some of my favorite "smallish" BBb tubas are:
Rotor:
MW 18 "Handy"
Cerveny 683
Jupiter 780

Piston:
Yamaha 621
Jupiter 482
Eastman 226

[BopEuph]

Thanks. Being new to tuba, what would I be looking at for used prices for the Yamaha and Jupiter models?

[BopEuph]

Yep, I am comfortable with 3+1, but when my euph was stolen a few years back, I decided there was no point in replacing it, since I might have made $500 with my Willson 2900. As much as I miss it, it's not practical for a freelancer. It gave me an excuse to pick up the 12J sitting in the corner and actually learn to play it. Within 6 months, I was starting to get requests to bring it to my jazz bass gigs; since Orlando has, or at least had, a very strong trad jazz scene, and there's still some players in town that prefer that sound. I'm now getting calls for commercial work around town. I do both reading and playing, and am usually one of the first calls in the state each time someone has a professional production of Chicago--I'm spending a week with the US tour in a couple of weeks on the gulf coast.

It definitely seems that front action is easier to hold, since some of the weight can be shared on the right hand a little easier than the top actions. I've been reluctant to venture into Eb, since it requires relearning the fingerings, and I've been a euphonium player for about 20 years when the euph was stolen.

I'll say that I have trouble with the notes lower than the G an octave below the bass clef staff, but people have been saying that the horn is probably a large part of that.

As far as the Chinese companies, I was loaned a BBb directly from the John Packer factory while on a tour for Chicago in China with the West End Cast (which I had to get the production company to talk to, since they tried to provide me a Yamaha 642 EUPHONIUM, and tell me that I was being "too picky" when I explained that to them). I did like the horn, but it was a bit on the heavy side for standing. Lord knows what happened to the horn--the tour was an epic failure, and I had heard from one of the crew that it was on an uncovered truck sitting in a parking lot somewhere, so if it wasn't stolen, it was sitting outside in the elements.

A side note: when I was studying euphonium in college, it seems like I was led to believe that I could get a degree and then travel the country doing solo recitals and playing the few orchestral pieces that called for one. As much as we used to think it was possible in college, it just is almost impossible to be a professional euphonium player outside of the military bands, and I told myself in college I'd only do it if I ever was invited to one of the DC bands. The best thing I did for myself was to take bass seriously before I graduated!

[tubeast]

Howard Johnson 2011 FA or -TA-Model by Meinl-Weston.
Designed just for Your kind of gig, as it seems.

Little weight
Surprisingly big sound for its tiny bore.
Lots of punch when asked for it.

Great low register when used with big mouthpiece (PT50+, for example).

[Three Valves]

Thanks. Being new to tuba, what would I be looking at for used prices for the Yamaha and Jupiter models?

There is a Jupiter 482 at Balt. Brass for 3795.00
The 482 I played was nearly as heavy and big as a 4/4.

Also a MW 2011FA for 6995.00

[Dan Tuba]

Bloke's advice about the 3 + 1 EEb is great. They work very well for Jazz/commercial setting or really just about any type of playing situation. They take a little getting used to in the 4th valve combinations, however, once you get comfortable with the feel, it's a lot of fun to play.

[Rick Denney]

...Lord knows what happened to the horn--the tour was an epic failure, and I had heard from one of the crew that it was on an uncovered truck sitting in a parking lot somewhere, so if it wasn't stolen, it was sitting outside in the elements....

Off-topic, but I'm trying to imagine all the cultural references in Chicago resonating at any level in China (any more than traditional Chinese theater would resonate in the USA), and my mind just can't wrap around it. It probably just reinforced in their minds that all Americans are gangsters.

Back on topic: There are a couple of other possibilities, one more common and one downright uncommon. The common one is a Conn 14K sousaphone, which has serious credentials playing jazz and is made for standing. The 14K is the lighter and smaller of the Bb sousaphones. The fiberglass version is the 36K, which is not in any way incompetent because it is fiberglass.

The rarer choice is a Martin fiberglass tuba from back in the 60's. It's three-valve and there are some notes you can't play as a result, but in jazz maybe that's a manageable problem. It has a 4/4 body (maybe a small 4/4) and a larger bell, and a warm, resonant sound that can bark if needed. Very light, but they are hard to find. I've only seen one.

Rick "wondering at the thinking behind some cultural exchanges" Denney

[Uncle Markie]

I worked in Orlando for 9 years, both at WDW and for many local contractors. A lot of the work entailed atmosphere "strolling" work - the basic 3-hour casual, or an 8-hour shift in a theme park. The late Lee Richardson and I used to have lunch together at EPCOT and one day we figured out you could play pretty much every gig in that town on a sousaphone - which both of us pretty much did.

That said, a lot of guys used the 12J, 5J, and for CC fans the Conn 2J - all of which are pretty much the same concept of a tuba. Smaller bore, light, front action and very in-tune to themselves. Plus enough "sound" for the work at hand, and they're sturdy horns with generally quick valves. Conn "fuzz" tends to hide more than a few intonation problems too. My Martin sat in the closet except for the few times I still did circus work during that time. Great horn, but too heavy to ever stand with and a shlep in and out of short gigs.

I had a "Schiller" E-flat for a while; I liked it well enough, but found it lacking where I had to get under a trombone in a small ensemble. Too much humping the air through the fourth valve all the time. John Fletcher - who was the best E-flat tuba player I ever heard - check that - best tuba player I ever heard - had to ditch the E-flat for a big horn for orchestral work for the same reason.

I vote for the 12J if you can find one, and a King sousaphone if you can find a good one. On long gigs stand-up tuba leads to some back and chops problems. Same old thing - match the horn to the work you have.

Mark Heter

[Rick Denney]

I worked in Orlando for 9 years, both at WDW and for many local contractors. A lot of the work entailed atmosphere "strolling" work - the basic 3-hour casual, or an 8-hour shift in a theme park. The late Lee Richardson and I used to have lunch together at EPCOT and one day we figured out you could play pretty much every gig in that town on a sousaphone - which both of us pretty much did.

Yeah, I spent a year doing a gig at Fiesta Texas theme park in San Antonio, which was 30 minutes on, 30 minutes off for eight sets, standing on the street entertaining the people who were waiting in line to get into the indoor shows. Our part of the theme park was German, so a sousaphone would have been out of place. I was playing the upper tuba part and used a Yamaha 621 F tuba, with a harness I made myself so that it really fit properly. I played enough with that configuration to nearly wear through the strap eyelet on the tuba. No, the Yamaha is not at all a German design, but it was close enough. The lower tuba part was played by Ray Grim using a C tuba, a Miraphone 186. But I swear he has played that tuba so much since he bought it in the 70's that he doesn't have to hold it at all--it just attaches itself to the front of his body.

Rick "shocked to realize that was 25 years ago" Denney

[Donn]

It definitely seems that front action is easier to hold, since some of the weight can be shared on the right hand a little easier than the top actions.

That's certainly my experience. Of course as just mentioned, the sousaphone is more or less the ideal, though it depends on performance situation. Low ceilings are sure a problem! but I'm more thinking of acoustic feedback, which becomes more critical since it's harder for the player to hear directly. That could be an advantage with the helicon - I think most of the advantage is that they don't look like high school marching band, but the european style instruments put you in a better position to hear yourself.

I'll say that I have trouble with the notes lower than the G an octave below the bass clef staff, but people have been saying that the horn is probably a large part of that.

Yes, but I dare say you won't get a whole lot more out of anything in that size range. I mean, I've never played a 12J, but ... up to a 4/4 King or that 14K sousaphone you may notice the difference, on notes below G, but it won't be night and day, is my guess. If that's a potentially very useful range for you ... this is a long shot crazy idea, and bear in mind that these things are extremely awkward to transport, but Cerveny's Bb helicon would be worth looking at, because of the 4 valves and relatively large bore. Never played one, but have played the Eb version and it has a very robust low end for a bass tuba. You're highly unlikely to ever see one, so probably immaterial.

[BopEuph]

Yeah, a 12J is what I have now. It's an old school horn, so it was abused when I got it, of course. The upper 3rd slide tubing was mashed into the bugle, so some of the dents weren't completely removed, making the alignment really poor. A brass repair buddy worked on that thing for a few hours to get it to be somewhat usable. He also lapped the valves, making them finally stop catching, but said that it might be a good idea to start thinking about a new horn eventually.

I do like the 12J, and was just wondering what else might be good. But the price still seems right for the Conn. Tom Treece is in the area and has a huge collection of tubas, so I think after my traveling gigs die down a bit in March, I'll ask if I can try some of his horns out to see if I like anything different.

I don't really have a required range, since I can avoid notes where I'm not feeling it on a particular day; but I will say that Chicago does have low F's all over the place that I just don't feel like I can get a good, solid, in-time articulation, so I usually bring it up the octave. Nobody's the wiser, but it feels like it's lacking if I can't even nail a low E. Curiously, it seems the false tones from Eb down to about Db pop out easier.

I would love a helicon or sousaphone, but shouldn't start a collection of tubas any time soon, either (I'm not really currently in the market, just wanting to see what my options are). I'm up to TEN basses, four trombones, and a tuba. And that's just the instruments for my pro gigs!

By the way, Mark, you might know my landlord Pat Doyle. He and Lee were very good friends and he always tells me he wish I met him because he thinks Lee would have been excited to see me pick up the tuba.

[Donn]

I don't really have a required range, since I can avoid notes where I'm not feeling it on a particular day; but I will say that Chicago does have low F's all over the place that I just don't feel like I can get a good, solid, in-time articulation, so I usually bring it up the octave. Nobody's the wiser, but it feels like it's lacking if I can't even nail a low E. Curiously, it seems the false tones from Eb down to about Db pop out easier.

Well, join the crowd. As a relative matter, of course there's a lot that skill can account for, but acoustically it's a nasty combination of straight valve tubing, conical bore and long wavelength, so you can't expect a lot of help from the instrument. The only tuba that has ever really sung for me down there is a laughably big one, but I think even that isn't a guarantee. Taking it up is probably something we should all do more often.

[BopEuph]

Well, this makes me feel better. I figured I just wasn't a very great tuba player that just had enough knowledge of jazz and commercial music to make it work. I'm also going to get a lesson or two with Jay Hunsberger when the season dies down. If there's a possibility for me to start looking more into legit playing, maybe I'll start tackling it.

[TUbajohn20J]

I second the 14K. As far as tubas though, I love my 10J top action for standing up. It's so lightweight that it's not a struggle even with being top action. But if you're stuck on front action, 12J for sure.

[Bob Kolada]

The BMB 3/4 C is a sweet horn- punchy, colorful tone, easy to play. I'd guess that the Bb is similar.

[pjv]

Sousaphones are great for this work. 3 valves bring you down to low E which is as far down as the average bass guitar or contrabas go.
I wonder why nobody mentioned the modern King tubas? The are spot on for intonation and most probably a lot lighter than the older models. (You can easily find the weight of most tubas with a quick search).
If you're in the market for a euro style rotary valved helicon think real good and hard if it works with your body type. Really, I don't know what they were thinking when they designed these things.
Good luck.
Ps Eb players: how practical are the 2nd partial E's on compensating Eb's? It seems like it would be a stuffy blow for this "last note" in the bread an butter range.

[hup_d_dup]

Since you're already considering a 5J, keep your eyes open for a 4J. Similar horn but a bit smaller & lighter. Not a big sound but a very decent horn otherwise. Can be found for very reasonable prices.

Regarding the previously mentioned Besson 983; I own one and it is a magnificent horn ... but it's pricey and there may be some types of environments you wouldn't want to bring it to ('nuff said about that . . . I don't want to get on anyone's wrong side). Besides, you're stuck in Eb and that may put you out of commission for a while.

Hup

[Donn]

Since you're already considering a 5J, keep your eyes open for a 4J. Similar horn but a bit smaller & lighter. Not a big sound but a very decent horn otherwise. Can be found for very reasonable prices.

Which naturally leads to the Olds O99, if as seems to be widely believed it's really the same tuba as the Conn 4J. And the Reynolds Contempora, the smaller one that's apparently identical to the O99.

[Uncle Markie]

BobEuph -
Say hello to Pat Doyle for me when you pay your rent!

In response to some posters - the 10J is a little gem of a tuba, although it can't be pushed for very much sound. The examples I've tried are remarkably in-tune too. Good ones go for good money; most of them are school beaters.

For those who care: Ron Raffio opened and held down the chair in the current NYC production of Chicago for several years on his one-piece King 1240 - three valves I think, and sounded great as he always does. The original production's tuba/bass player was the late Bill Stanley (old friend) who could play anything with valves, had time like a clock and never missed a chord change in his life. I think he played an old Alex CC.

12J tubas seem to turn up more frequently than the 5J tubas - the 4th valve functions as what Dave Gannett used to refer to as his "octave key" - meaning he only used it to get from E natural down to the fundamental and most of the time played it as a 3-valve tuba. And quite well, thank you. During my time in Orlando Dave was playing a 2J CC, although he later switched to a large Conn BBb sousaphone. The stand-up routine kinda forces that issue.

The Olds 0-99 (also the Olds 0-991, 0-994, and Bach Mercedes and Reynolds - all the same horn) can still be found for reasonable $$. Bach bought the Olds tooling went Norlin went out and made a few of these. Walter Sear consulted on the horn and got them to make all the slides double-draw. It is the essentially the same valve section from their sousaphones. I did pretty well with one of these in HS and successfully auditioned for college on it. It had a nice sound too.

I just sold my King 2341; my horn was one of the first made and had intonation issues. I wouldn't recommend that axe for stand-up - you'll get hunched back.

Is Claude Kashnig still around Orlando? Maybe he could get horn of yours working. 12J replacement parts are readily available - don't waste time pushing dents out of things than can be easily replaced.

Mark Heter