DMA

[Donn]

What astonished me was that the difficulty of the analysis of the piece reminded me of an undergraduate level engineering course, even maybe a lower level one. I couldn't believe this particular degree (I am NOT commenting on anyone's DMA that is here!!!!) had a D in it. So I asked about the difference. I had thought it would have the same intellectual requirements as the PhD. Apparently it has a different purpose.

Yes. If you require the kind of analytical aptitude an engineer needs, at best you'll get engineers when you wanted performer/composers.

An anecdote along the side:

I have a natural science background but also got to see the inside of a landscape architecture program. This is a design field, a kind of work that's bit hard to describe, similar to visual art in a way - but it isn't art in the sense of personal expression, and of course it's much more rigidly constrained by functional requirements, and in the end, not many people have what it takes to do it well.

It also overlaps a little with civil engineering - they learn to do grading plans, though in our jurisdiction anyway they can't sign them, and I imagine the object is really just familiarity with grading plans. The instructor who was responsible for that course work included some remedial optional instruction on fractions. She had worked out a sort of visual diagrammatic approach that she'd probably seen used elsewhere in the instruction of landscape architecture students, who sure respond to diagrams but were in some cases helpless in the face of a fraction. This was a five year professional program.

My impression was that spelling aptitude was also much lower than average, characteristically, and it would be easy to conclude that these individuals met a pretty low intellectual standard. But their design aptitude also resided between their ears, i.e. intellectual. That's where their professional competence would be proven in the end, and again, it's an exceptional faculty that you can't get from reading books or anything.

I expect music performance and composition is somewhat similar - actually my impression is that stereotypically musicians come off much better in terms of literacy and mathematical abilities, but anyway it is somewhat immaterial to their professional competence.

(PS on the grading plans - the instructor was teaching that wrong, having at some point learned a misconception about storm rainfall charts that conflicted with reality and with textbook drain pipe sizing.)

[MaryAnn]

I would have thought that musical composition would be very compatible with an engineering mind. How would you say it is different? Engineers are not only analysts; they are also creators, for example those who do software.Compositions have to have a structure, and those structures can get very complex.

[Donn]

I think it is indeed similar, maybe compatible. I'm pleased you saw fit to mention software, as I used to be nominally a "software engineer" (though to be honest had no more engineering credentials than a "sanitary engineer"), and it certainly has some elements of that same design faculty, you don't get there by analysis alone. Maybe the key difference is that to be good at it, you have to be awfully rigorous. I mean there's creative thinking, but within very strict limits imposed by the structure you're working with, and your job is to pull a solution out of that, that will work. I would expect that same analytical rigor to be a no help at all for a composer, and more likely a problem in the common case where it's a bit dominant.

I get around it when playing - real-time improvisation happens fast enough that it slips past and the analysis faculty really never knows what happened. I'm sure there are people who manage to integrate it all better - Bach for example, famous for being so mathematical - I don't really get that in general, but he obviously did have his moments, like the Art of the Fugue.

[Rick Denney]

Donn, good engineers are far more creative than bad architects, and what they build is less likely to fall down or leak. But, having spent three years in an architecture program before switching to engineering, I take your point. Even so, when I went to architecture school, math was required through the first semester of calculus. A semester of calculus would not be fun for anyone who struggled with the concept of fractions.

There is no excuse for anyone getting a college degree (or a high-school diploma, for that matter) without being able to spell. Spelling is a discipline, and the notion that artists do not need discipline is frankly ludicrous. Nobody is more disciplined than a top-flight musician, and none of that musical ability (or whatever artistic skill possessed by a landscape architect) would have been undermined by directing some of that discipline towards memorizing the spelling of common words.

I know many, many excellent musicians with strong mathematical and analytical skills, and many trained musicians who ended up in software-related day jobs. Too many not to suggest some causal correlation.

In what jurisdiction would a civil engineer not be allowed to stamp a grading plan? All engineering laws require a self-determination of competence, so a licensed engineer who is not skilled with grading (including those ways in which reality depart from the rules of thumb used by non-engineers and poor engineers) should not do so, but I can't think of anywhere a civil engineer competent in that area would be precluded from stamping grading or drainage plans. I see those plans all the time in the highway and construction world.

Rick "civil engineer licensed in five states" Denney

[KevinMadden]

To the many people who are saying the Ph.D is a 'stronger' or 'higher' degree than the D.M.A; are there schools that offer a Ph.D in performance or any kind of 'applied' instrumental field? (Maybe Pedagogy?) Most job openings I see require a 'Terminal Degree' in a related field, this would be a D.M.A, Ph.D, or even M.F.A (though since you can get an M.F.A. right after undergrad it probably is a weaker degree). If you're applying for a job teaching applied instrument lessons at a college would a Ph.D in Theory or History be looked upon more highly than a D.M.A in performance?

fwiw, Nebraska (where I'm at) is a non-thesis M.M. (for performance, theory and history have a thesis) and all Doctoral degrees require some sort of 'document' (i'm not sure if they actually call the music related Ph.D documents dissertations or not) that are of a length that is sensical to the subject studied, Ph.D's are for research fields thus the papers are longer, D.M.A's are for performance fields thus the papers are shorter (though still longer than any term paper) but there are 5 recitals to give (3 solo, 1 chamber, 1 lecture). All documents get defended, and there is a large theory project (regardless of degree) and oral comprehensives.

[Donn]

Spelling is a discipline, and the notion that artists do not need discipline is frankly ludicrous. Nobody is more disciplined than a top-flight musician, and none of that musical ability (or whatever artistic skill possessed by a landscape architect) would have been undermined by directing some of that discipline towards memorizing the spelling of common words.

It's a discipline for some people, for me it just came in the box. A lot of "visually oriented" types get other things in the box, that's my impression, but have to sweat over spelling. (Today it's a lot easier for them, I expect, as the spelling checkers cut down on the number of things they have to memorize.)

I know many, many excellent musicians with strong mathematical and analytical skills, and many trained musicians who ended up in software-related day jobs. Too many not to suggest some causal correlation.

Yes, I would agree with that.

In what jurisdiction would a civil engineer not be allowed to stamp a grading plan?

That must have gotten scrambled - it's the landscape architect who can do grading plans but would need to get them signed, by a CE.

[Rick Denney]

Spelling is a discipline, and the notion that artists do not need discipline is frankly ludicrous. Nobody is more disciplined than a top-flight musician, and none of that musical ability (or whatever artistic skill possessed by a landscape architect) would have been undermined by directing some of that discipline towards memorizing the spelling of common words.

It's a discipline for some people, for me it just came in the box. A lot of "visually oriented" types get other things in the box, that's my impression, but have to sweat over spelling. (Today it's a lot easier for them, I expect, as the spelling checkers cut down on the number of things they have to memorize.)

I can see those who have dyslexia struggling with it, but there are some even on this forum who do struggle with that and still get it right. But that's a condition much different than just being "visually oriented". I suspect the problem is that they are spending time visualizing things while others are doing their spelling homework, or reading comics or playing video games instead of reading books. Anyone who can memorize music (or remember it later) can learn to spell--it's just memorization. I'm a rotten memorizer, so I simply spent hours reading, and let the memorizing happen by itself. Sorta like playing scales.

Engineers are generally not expected to have strong language skills, and as a profession we are seriously disadvantaged by this deficiency.

Rick "recalling some critique of relatively minor grammar mistakes on graduate theses, and being most embarassed by that" Denney

[Three Valves]

Engineers are generally not expected to have strong language skills, and as a profession we are seriously disadvantaged by this deficiency.

The technical writing industry is grateful for your lack of expressive expertise!!

[Rick Denney]

Engineers are generally not expected to have strong language skills, and as a profession we are seriously disadvantaged by this deficiency.

The technical writing industry is grateful for your lack of expressive expertise!!

Yeah, if the technical writers could just understand what we are trying to say.

(That is the necessary response for my engineer bros. As a professional explainer, I've spent far too much time translating what engineers say into plain English, so that--and here's the irony--other engineers can understand it.)

Rick "noting the inability of many engineers to communicate in math, too" Denney

[Tubassist]

A bit off topic but does anyone know the difference between a DA (Doctor of Arts), DM (Doctor of Music), and a DMA? I'm in my first year at my MM program and have been looking at schools for a DMA. I've found that some offer a DM or DA instead (Indiana and Northern Colorado, respectively). Do universities prefer job applicants that have a DMA over the other two or does it even matter?

[Rev Rob]

There was a Baptist preacher in Memphis at a very large church, Paul Caudill, who had earned both a Doctor of Philosophy degree and a D.D. (Doctor of Divinity) degree...

...right out there at the corner of Poplar Avenue and East Parkway - on a stately wrought-iron sign:

FIRST BAPTIST CHURCH
Dr. R. Paul Caudill, PhD D.D.

yeah...He was a fuddy-duddy.

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ok...if you don't believe, me google it, @$$h0L3$ ...but yeah: the D.D. thing is more like the DMA thing...a degree in "doing" rather than "researching".

To be totally proper the sign should read: Rev. Dr. R. Paul Caudill, PhD, D.D. and to put icing on the cake instead of him receiving a D. D. he could have studied to receive a Th D. - Doctor of Theology.