State of the stencils and clones

[imperialbari]

Length of soundboard? Viola isn’t a brass instrument.

With the fractional designations of string instruments for younger players reflect their volumen as compared to the standard 4/4 size. The volumen of the resonance body is a determining factor for the amount of sound a given string instrument will emit.

Klaus

[Lectron]

Probably a moot point, but the Wyvern, listed at €6050, is very cheep.

It is only cheap if it holds same quality as a much more expensive horn....if not it's a downgrade for less money.

[pjv]

which is exactly the point of this discussion.
So in your opinion, after testing the Wyvern you feel it is too expensive?

[Lectron]

which is exactly the point of this discussion.
So in your opinion, after testing the Wyvern you feel it is too expensive?

What I feel does not hold much value, but it sure looks good.
I would like to test it, but every-time I try out a Wessex horn
..After being told, issue is fixed, we have improved that, plating better now....
Every-time I see that same bad threads in valve caps.
Same valve-guides snapping off after very limited use
Still a lot of issues, but nope.
I have not yet tried the Wyvern, hope to do so next week, but from my point of view it does not strike me as cheap

[Three Valves]

[Three Valves]

..After being told, issue is fixed, we have improved that, plating better now....
Every-time I see that same bad threads in valve caps.
Same valve-guides snapping off after very limited use
Still a lot of issues, but nope.

Some sellers practice the "these are not the droids you're looking for..." approach. Every time a criticism, constructive or otherwise, is made, potential buyers are told "oh, yes, but we've already addressed and fixed that..." That only works for so long even with the most hopeful and then only with the most naïve.

Isn't it somewhat hopeful and naive to expect no flaws or imperfections from even the most costly instruments??

When given the chance, in most cases, reputable importers respond while others remain dubious.

[timothy42b]

The weird looking viola is an attempt of correcting a basic design flaw of the traditional viola. Compared to the violin and to the cello this traditional viola simply is too small to supply sufficient resonance for the range of notes that the C-G-D-A stringing will allow for.

Klaus

You have to redesign the entire family:

http://www.nvfa.org/8tet.html" target="_blank

[Dan Schultz]

I'm sure improvements have been made to some if the instryments being discussed here. However... I just serviced a NEW JP Sterling 379B tuba. The horn looked nice... had a pretty case... and played well. But... it still suffered from scratchy rotors and slides. They also have not figured out that those 'gummy' soft stop arm bumpers are not good. This is the first Packer tuba I've seen and frankly... I was expecting a better show of the 'little things' that are really easy to deal with at the factory. I guess pretty still counts more than quality. The average consumer doesn't know the difference.

Not bashing Chinese stuff in particular. I'm just saying that when buying one... don't be alarmed if the horn needs to be cleaned once or twice before everything works as it should.

[Three Valves]

my CBS-era 4-bolt-neck bass: black paint/white pick guard
What attracted me to that color scheme back in 1974? the price

Me??

The funk filters!!

[MaryAnn]

The weird looking viola is an attempt of correcting a basic design flaw of the traditional viola. Compared to the violin and to the cello this traditional viola simply is too small to supply sufficient resonance for the range of notes that the C-G-D-A stringing will allow for.

Klaus

You have to redesign the entire family:

http://www.nvfa.org/8tet.html" target="_blank" target="_blank

Since I actually play the viola as well as the violin, I have often thought that the size problem should be fixed by changing the playing position to be like that of the cello, and making the viola the proper size for the range it playes. Not only would the size problems would be fixed, but human neck problems fixed at the same time. I have seen very good-sounding violas that were much deeper than my viola, played by people with very long necks so they would fit.

[Donn]

Since I actually play the viola as well as the violin, I have often thought that the size problem should be fixed by changing the playing position to be like that of the cello, and making the viola the proper size for the range it playes. Not only would the size problems would be fixed, but human neck problems fixed at the same time. I have seen very good-sounding violas that were much deeper than my viola, played by people with very long necks so they would fit.

Indeed, the "vertical viola" is a thing. "Deep" violas are a new one on me, though ... casual search for a reference turned up several on a brand of "travel violas" and a tune "Rolling in the Deep". And this on viola size, but it doesn't even mention depth, it's mostly about length. Length matters because you're trying to make the soundboard resonate to low frequency vibrations, which start to come through more clearly when the soundboard is longer; the article mentions a 2:3 ratio but doesn't explain. (My cheap-o viola has a ca. 16 inch body and ca. 14½ inch strings from nut to bridge.)

[imperialbari]

I like the link about viola size.

Have you read that article yourself?

There is nothing said about the need for a longer soundboard other than longer means more volume, which is the factor needed for C-string sonority.

Klaus

[MaryAnn]

I read the article. Interesting to me is that my older factory-made (not Chinese) viola is 16 1/2 inches, close to what the article describes as ideal length, and with someone who knows how to get sound out of a stringed instrument (it's all in the use of the bow,) sounds surprisingly good for what it is. Not in the ballpark of my violin, but not expected to be. And the C string is very difficult to get to sound as good as the rest of it. If it were deeper, and not factory-made, supposedly it would sound better. But I'm not shy to play it in string quartets. On the one recording I have with both instruments (a private project with a group of lady friends doing "oldies"....) they sound pretty much equal being miked, although in a concert hall the violin would clearly be superior.

[imperialbari]

With some viola players, it would be considered their greatest quality, if you never heard a note from them.

A good friend sat first desk primo in a local string band, so I went to hear one of their concerts, where a pro violist was soloist in a Vivaldi concert. Playing very well, but doing an odd gimmick at the last note: playing the fifth in stead of the root. Just about the worst choice possible. The third or triple stopping the full triad had been better.

And then I asked her after the concert, why her C string was remarbly inferior compared to the other strings. Her luthier had suggested a new brand of C-string supposed to solve the problems know from that pitch of string. Which it very audibly didn’t.

My large Chinese viola at my request is equipped with synthetic gut strings, which are even over all four strings, but they hardly make the viola as loud as it would have been with modern strings. I don’t really play it, as I bought is as part of a plan B, when my vision was challenged by necessary, but risky, surgery. Things went better than feared, fortunately.

Like with violins the viola comes in fractional sizes. They differ from violins with the same ‘footprints‘ by being deeper.

Klaus

[Wyvern]

I get the feeling some people think that the considerable work Wessex Tubas does to improve quality is just marketing talk, but I never post anything on here I do not believe is true. I spend over a month each year in China at the factory ensuring the quality ever gets better. Any problems that have come to light, are discussed with the production manager and a plan is made to correct. Every single tuba and euphonium is individually checked before is accepted and every visit I am raising the benchmark of acceptability - so horns rejected now, might have been accepted one year ago. For example the issue of valve threads was mentioned above, all last year I was working on the principal of threes time and out - meaning if we could not easily thread on the third attempt, then it was rejected. This year it has been raised to two times and out. So my acceptable criteria has been raised further. It is not realistic to expect the factory to overnight improve to top German standards, but I am pushing them there one step at a time. As Wessex is one of the factories most important tuba customers with the ear of the CEO (which my Chinese wife can talk to direct) - they take notice.

It was gratifying when a professional player who had tried Dolce euphonium at ITEC last year - and then again at NAMM this January said it was very obvious to him how the quality had improved in just 6 months. That is what I am trying to achieve.

Often people moaning online about a tuba with noisy valves or bad valve threads are talking about a horn that was made maybe two years ago. With some models it can take that long from production to selling - but that is not indicative of new production today. Obviously a small company like Wessex Tubas cannot afford to throw away old stock, because they don't reach the latest standards, although if we do know they fall short, we sell at discounted price.

[Wyvern]

Stop moaning, people. Dump that "old" one you bought two years ago and buy a new one. You can afford it.

That is not what I am saying, but indicating where problems are reported they usually involve old production and are not indicative of current standards. Where possible I am happy to get new parts such rotary valve parts or valve caps to bring the tuba up to latest standards if anyone is having a problem. That is part of the service. No one is saying buy new horn after two years.

Maybe the use of the word 'moaning' was not the best choice, so apologies if that caused any offence.

[Lectron]

Often people moaning online about a tuba with noisy valves or bad valve threads are talking about a horn that was made maybe two years ago. With some models it can take that long from production to selling - but that is not indicative of new production today. Obviously a small company like Wessex Tubas cannot afford to throw away old stock, because they don't reach the latest standards, although if we do know they fall short, we sell at discounted price.

I talked about old horns and I talk about new horns.
Two new bombinos loosing their guides.
Very easy to cross thread.

Issues addressed years ago.

I am not saying you are not working to improve these matters, and probably way more than most, but I am saying it might seem difficult for the factory to understand what is acceptable and expected quality and what is simply not good enough.

Sending out instruments with same issues year after year might indicate that they really don't care that much or that it might be over their league

[Dan Schultz]

Sorry, Jonathan. In my opinion.... failure for screw theads to enage after ONE try is the ONLY acceptable test. The cutting tools being used are generating rough threads. Some of this may be due to the use of harder material for the valve caps. The Conn 15J tubas had the same problem when they used caps made of a nickel alloy.

You may be trying very hard to improve things but I am of the opinion that the manufacturers are going to continue doing things like they do without much regard for who the distributor is.

[Wyvern]

Two new bombinos loosing their guides.
Very easy to cross thread.

I don't know what you mean by "loosing their guides". The valve guides are very like a Yamaha, and I am not aware them ever being a problem. I find them a lot more reliable than my past experience of Besson guides.

For cross threading, I wonder how you are trying to put on cap? If you just plonk on with two fingered it is possible to have crooked and cross thread. However the way I would always advise customers to put on valve cap would be to lightly press down with valve button to apply pressure in center. Then turn anti-clockwise until you hear/feel click, then turn clockwise to screw on. Unless the thread is damaged that will engage the cap without problem every time, with no risk of cross threading.

You may be trying very hard to improve things but I am of the opinion that the manufacturers are going to continue doing things like they do without much regard for who the distributor is.

Money counts! If a major customer such as Wessex Tubas will not accept without improvements, they improve. I practice what I preach. If instruments are not up to standard, I will not accept and the factory don't get paid for those horns. They then do their very best to make sure that problem never happens again.

[Ken Crawford]

so horns rejected now, might have been accepted one year ago.

Well that's comforting to customers of a year or more.