Advice on this bari-alto horn mess?

[Ltrain]

So I recruited an enthusiastic alto horn player for my brass band. She was so stoked on playing ASAP she went out and got herself a really cool looking vintage alto/tenor thingy for all of $120.

Problem: I went to play it and the fundamental was not Eb or even F, but a really stuffy Bb... somewhere between a baritone with a loose spit valve and a bass trumpet with a loose spit valve. I thought she may have bought an actual tiny baritone, but it wouldn't accept my trombonist's mouthpiece... so it's definitely supposed to be an alto (tenor to those across the pond).

Then I looked closer at the tubing and it looks like someone soldered on like 10-12" of extra tubing! WTF right?!

So, someone either thought this horn played a perfect fourth sharp, or they thought it would make for a good bass trumpet/small bore baritone? Nonetheless, we also discovered a soldering leak at the 3rd valve.

It's a really cool horn – a "Le Maire" from "Paris". My question to you all is: should I advise she takes it back, or is this a cool enough find that it would be worth the expense to get it back to Eb? Her budget is tight, so I want to be helpful as possible while being cost-sensitive. Any insights regarding this bizarre "tenor tuba" would be helpful.

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https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwo6D ... jJ0ZFpoYjQ" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0Bwo6D ... 3J3a2k3TE0" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

[barry grrr-ero]

The big variable would be the prospective tech. you plan to use, correct? Most tech's charge a lot of money these days. Is there are a good one near her who doesn't charge an arm and a leg? That should give some idea whether the work would be "cost effective", or if she should try to return it. $120 is pretty cheap for anything though. Tough call.

[PaulMaybery]

From the photo you posted, this appears to be a Bb tenor horn, that would have played the old Bb Tenor (Trombone) parts in those vintage band editions. The Bb Baritone (a little larger bore and bell) on the baritone part, a still larger bore and bell on a Bb Bass (nominally the modern euphonium) and finally the Eb Bass played on the Eb Tuba. An Eb horn, somewhat smaller than the Bb Tenor with about a 6.5 foot overall bugle length would have played parts marked Eb Alto. If you get the idea, the horns were called by the range or voice of the part they played, hence Alto, tenor etc etc.

I have one of these(actually several), abeit a different maker(s), but virtually the exact same tubing orientation. From the photo, I do not see any added tubing. The tuning slide, being before the valve section might give that appearance. It is more than likely in old "high pitch" being about 35 cents sharp to modern A 440. It was not uncommon to find that someone did indeed add tubing to the main tuning slides of older horns) to bring it back down to modern pitch, but I do not see any evidence of that being the case.

So what you have is just a Bb Tenor. It is not an Eb Alto and never was. When I was collecting, these came along now and then, but were somewhat ellusive, particularly when I was trying to find one. Enjoy it for what it is, but you'll need to find something else to work in Eb.

Best wishes with your new collectors piece. If you want I have about 100 old brass band horns that I could send you way. Just sayin'. I need to make room in the garage.

[hubert]

Looks to me as a "normal" early French bariton in Bb, as it was used in my youth next to the non-compensated 4-valve "euphonium" or "petite basse" in French and Belgian wind bands. Mainly in use till the 1960s.

I am afraid it cannot be converted into a decent tenor horn in Eb. So, returning (perhaps with some loss of money) seems the best way to go.

Hubert

[Dan Schultz]

If you want a horn in Eb... take this one back and look some more.

[Donn]

If lacquer and a forward facing bell isn't a problem, you might be able to pick one up from an online auction in fairly nice condition for less than she paid. King or other US make, likely front valves.

[Ltrain]

Wow... I don't know who to thank first... so thanks, EVERYONE.

And I thought I knew it all! I humbly accept my lot as a student of life. Bb "tenor" (piccolo tuba??), huh. Who knew? Sounds like a bit of "liger" instrument if you ask me, but to each his own I guess!

Awesome advice here. Seeing the prices these ("properly pitched") horns are going for online, I can say that's the direction I would go if I were her.

If anyone has a fascination with her parisian liger horn and would want to consider trading for a working condition Eb horn (or even something more useful like a Mellophone or Flugel) PM me. She said she'd be open to trading it for an equal value higher pitched instrument.

You guys, rock!

[barry grrr-ero]

nah - I sucked. Everyone else knew what it was. It did look vaguely familiar to me, but I've never seen one 'live'.

[TheGoyWonder]

alto horns galore right now! use the seating arrangement with bari/euph in the center and tenor on the side, and then the bell-forward isn't a problem because then they're playing across the band just like cornets.

[MikeW]

.

[imperialbari]

This one is only a few hundred bucks (from me), and is a good player:
http://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/ima ... T-SHOT.jpg

The JP072 Eb Tenor Horn, as recommended by Glynn Williams, principal euphonium of Fodens Band, is the perfect starter instrument for players of all ages. Very popular within the UK education sector, the instrument provides a good level of performance for the price. Constructed from yellow brass throughout, the instrument is lightweight and easy to hold enabling younger musicians to play for longer. The top sprung nickel valves have been described as having a sweet action, and are smooth and free.

The instrument has a bore size of .459" and an 8" bell. 3 waterkeys, a lyre box and bell ring are all supplied as standard.

The JP072 Eb Tenor Horn is supplied with a JP602 mouthpiece and lightweight case. The case is well designed and attractively styled with and a reflective safety strap and a comfortable shoulder strap. The case also includes a small external pocket ideal for sheet music and an internal storage compartment for small accessories.

All JP Instruments are covered by a comprehensive 2 year warranty against manufacturing defects. Please note this does not cover aesthetic or finish faults. For full terms & conditions visit the JP Musical Instruments website.​

This is a few hundred ~more~ bucks (from me), and is made in the same factory as the JP/Sterling model:
http://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/ima ... acquer.jpg



This is a few hundred ~more~ bucks (from me) than the middle-grade model, and ~is~ the full/professional JP/Sterling model...lightly bumping into the $1XXX range:
http://www.jpmusicalinstruments.com/ima ... acquer.jpg

All pictures are hi-res, thus the links to the pictures (rather than popping the pictures on this page).

Don’t all 3 models look very much the same?

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Problem: I went to play it and the fundamental was not Eb or even F, but a really stuffy Bb... somewhere between a baritone with a loose spit valve and a bass trumpet with a loose spit valve.

...................

If anyone has a fascination with her parisian liger horn and would want to consider trading for a working condition Eb horn (or even something more useful like a Mellophone or Flugel) PM me.

Who would want an instrument described like that?

From the looks I cannot exclude that this instrument was made in France, but to me it rather looks like a GDR-made piston instrument, which only were made for export purposes. They had one and only one quality: they were cheap.

Klaus

[MaryAnn]

That thing will never play in tune even if in Bb. I've also never played a bell-front that was possible to play in tune, with the lower octave always being at least a 9th. She is MUCH better off to get one of the bloke-sold real live altos or something similar from another seller. I was recently playing 2nd baritone in the brass band (before I switched to tuba) on first a borrowed yammie (played well in tune) and then a borrowed Besson of some age that was just gosh awful to get to play in tune. If you want your band in tune, make sure they have instruments that will actually do that.

[imperialbari]

...to me it rather looks like a GDR-made piston instrument, which only were made for export purposes. They had one and only one quality: they were cheap.

Klaus

' designed to be exported to people who lived crappier lives than did the people who lived under the GDR's regime...??

Even if amateurs. were not allowed to buy professional quality instruments in the GDR, I doubt they were left with the GDR-made piston instruments.

Even the cheaper rotary instruments from B&S, the Weltklang line, were quite good, as they were of the same acoustic designs as the B&S rotaries, which even you still play a sample of, because they were good. The really odd thing was that the crappy B&S piston instruments were marked with the same blue and gold emerald B&S sign as the rotary instruments despite the quality levels not at all being comparable.

My refernce to export was because GDR would do whatever to get so-called dollar-convertible currencies like DM, DKr, or GBP (Devisenbeschaffung). One then may say that it was sad that their worst instruments found buyers in the West.

Czechslovakia followed the same line of selling impossibly bad piston instruments, in my country mostly under the Lignatone brand.

But then the low end piston instruments from France and from The Netherlands weren’t much better.

As for the actual instrument stamping it Le Maire (The Mayor) and Paris doesn’t necessarily make its origins French.

Klaus

[Three Valves]

If alto players are permitted to blame their instruments for playing out of tune;

I may become an alto player!!

[Donn]

I suppose if it was indeed made in the GDR, it's unlikely to be high pitch, true? (As someone suggested above it might be.)