Score! (Martin Mammoth Discussion)

[SousaWarrior9]

My friend and I just picked up these two gorgeous Martin Mammoth tubas today for a mere $595 a piece! (with a tuba tamers included!) Not bad for a set of vintage, american-made BATs. Pistons and slides are like new, and there's only a few dings and spots of lacquer wear. The best part is, their serial numbers are only a few numbers off from one another and they look almost identical, right down to similar patters of dings and scratches (they were likely side-by-side in the same band program for decades). Both horns are from the RMC era (1961) and look remarkably good for their age. Needless to say, I'm thrilled at this amazing find and am thankful to have found two horns that are in this good of shape the same place.
I already have a Conn 20J, so I was hesitant at picking this up at first because of how similar they are in build and sound, but I just couldn't pass up the Martin at that price. After all, the Mammoth is in much better shape than my 20J, and after playing the Martin for the past few days, I think it plays even better than the Conn As a result my 20J may be on the market soon...time will tell.
In related news, we are now both in the market for upright bells for these babies, so be sure to message me if you have/find one or two, although I know they are as rare as hen's teeth.
Just thought I'd share the news on the discovery of this amazing BAT duo!
Photos Here:
Myself and a fellow Marching Illini Sousaphoninst with our new horns:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4BA8g ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank
My Martin alongside my 20J for comparison:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4BA8g ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

[SousaWarrior9]

congrats !

' pretty sure that you'll find that - with the Martin - you won't be fighting the open F.

Thanks, Bloke.
Yes, I find that this horn is much more in tune than the 20J, even though the horn does tend sharp even with two bits, however the tuning slide is ridiculously long, so I can pull out enough to be in-tune with no problem. My current set-up in terms of bits with the Mammoth is one original Martin bit (included with the horn) and one Conn bit to replace the missing second Martin bit. I'm tempted to Contact Martin Wilk for some replica bits if I get the cash.
I think that in every regard, the Mammoth is just slightly better than the Conn. I find it to be more in tune, and much easier to get a smooth, velvety sound, as well as a more controlled loud sound as well. I also find it a bit easier to hold because of the slightly more compact wrap. I still Love the 20J, don't get me wrong, But I think the Martins have the edge.

[Tubajug]

Very cool! Congrats on a great find!

[SousaWarrior9]

Interesting side by side. The martin is wrapped smaller. The wessex XL upright bell will fit on these I think they run about 700. Contact wessex usa. Congrats.

Thanks for the tip! Didn't want to shell out $1000+ for a Kanstul Bell. I'll contact Wessex

Do you already have one of these ?
i.e. Which one - of the set - is missing ?

Bloke, I can't exactly tell from the picture, I believe I have the bottom one.
Here is a picture of my bit:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4BA8g ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

[imperialbari]

Weren’t these Martins made for one of the top DC military bands?

As I remember it the Martins have a radically smaller bore through the valves than the Conn 2XJ series. 0.710" or thereabout for the Martins.

The long tuning slide with the pitch being sharp when pushed in all the way might point towards planned for adaptability for outdoors usage in cold weather as seen at presidential inaugurations.

Good find!

Klaus

[SousaWarrior9]

Weren’t these Martins made for one of the top DC military bands?

As I remember it the Martins have a radically smaller bore through the valves than the Conn 2XJ series. 0.710" or thereabout for the Martins.

The long tuning slide with the pitch being sharp when pushed in all the way might point towards planned for adaptability for outdoors usage in cold weather as seen at presidential inaugurations.

Good find!

Klaus

Yes, I believe the Navy band was outfitted at one time with 6 Martin Mammoths, with 4 top-action pistons, fixed upright bells, and main tuning slide triggers.

The bore is definitely smaller than the Conns, in a good way, I think it makes the horn easier to control. As for the exact bore size, I've been trying to find out what exactly mine is. I don't have any tools on hand to accurately measure it, so I've been looking at similar Mammoths, but have seen several different measurements listed, with bore sizes ranging from .710 to .720. If anyone knows what exactly the bore size is on the later RMC Mammoths and would like to share, I'd appreciate it.

The theory of the sharpness of the horn being intentional for cold weather is interesting, I'd never thought of that, and it seems plausible to me, However, I'm not sure if all Mammoths have this tendency, or if this is specific to the 'batch' that these two came from. Any other Mammoth players care to chime in on this?

[Three Valves]

His hair was perfect...

[tubazach07]

First off congrats on a great find! Both those Martins look to be in great shape. I highly suggest you buy the second Martin tunning bit it will make a huge difference. Those two bits are specifically designed for that lead pipe and using a conn bit will not work. Also get a good repairman to check the valve alignment in your Martin. Martins were hand made and some came out of the factory with a valve stem or two too short or too long. My valve stem on mine was too short and was throwing off the alignment. The Martins are great tubas. I use my 1934 Martin(with Kanstul recording bell) with the Navy when I am in town. There is going to be a recording released of every Navy fleet band playing a Sousa March celebrating 100 years of Sousa. I did the audio recording with my 3 valve Martin but had to do the video with a sousaphone.

[SousaWarrior9]

The DC Navy band special ordered a batch with the fixed upright bells, 4 top actions valves and the tuning slide lever. They also ordered them on the sharp side to allow for plenty of MTS movement (with the lever) in either direction:

It seems that, based on this, My horn was built intentionally sharp as well. No problem though, the horn is remarkably in tune with itself, and there's plenty of slide to bring down the pitch, and plenty of slide left for additional adjustments, although I don't think that'll be necessary.

First off congrats on a great find! Both those Martins look to be in great shape. I highly suggest you buy the second Martin tunning bit it will make a huge difference. Those two bits are specifically designed for that lead pipe and using a conn bit will not work. Also get a good repairman to check the valve alignment in your Martin. Martins were hand made and some came out of the factory with a valve stem or two too short or too long. My valve stem on mine was too short and was throwing off the alignment. The Martins are great tubas. I use my 1934 Martin(with Kanstul recording bell) with the Navy when I am in town. There is going to be a recording released of every Navy fleet band playing a Sousa March celebrating 100 years of Sousa. I did the audio recording with my 3 valve Martin but had to do the video with a sousaphone.

Thanks, I am intending to track down another bit as we speak. As for the alignment valves, you may be on to something. I Have taken some additional pictures of the horn, one of which is a close-up of the valves, where you can see that the third valve stem is slightly shorter than the first or second. I'm not sure if this is causing misalignment or not, as the horn was serviced before it was sold to me, and I haven't noticed any issues as to how it plays, but I will need to look into that.
Here is the closeup of the valves:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4BA8g ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank
Closeup on the body of the horn:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4BA8g ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank
Side view:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4BA8g ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank
Engraving on the back of the bell reads "The Martin Elkhart Ind. USA RMC":
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4BA8g ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank
Shot of the back of the horn:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4BA8g ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank
A (more in-focus) shot of the whole horn:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4BA8g ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank
Picture of the pistons, which are in fantastic shape for its age:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4BA8g ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank
Main tuning slide pulled out, to show the long amount of pull it has:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4BA8g ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank

[imperialbari]

Compared with the tuning slide of my York Master BBb I would not call the main tuning slide of this Martin especially long.

My point about this Martin maybe being built sharp to work better in cold circumstances comes from the fact that all brasses go flat in cold weather, but tubas are more vulnerable, because the player’s breath only will heat a smaller proportion of the instrument than with trombones and especially with trumpets or cornets.

Klaus

[imperialbari]

Please tell me, what RMC means in this context.

Klaus

[SousaWarrior9]

Please tell me, what RMC means in this context.

Klaus

RMC stands for "Roundtable of Musical Craftsman". This is when Reynolds, Martin, and Blessing were bought out in 1961 and merged into a single entity. I believe it went under in '64.

[SousaWarrior9]

You might investigate buying a Martin tenon and having your Conn 21J upright bell cut down to 20" and fit to the new tenon. I have no idea if that would work, just a thought.

I considered doing something of the sort, but I'd rather keep the 21J bell unaltered so someone else can use it. I also did't want to spend so much on a Kanstul replica bell, so I decided to contact Wessex, and I have ordered their upright bell for the Wessex XL, which fits the Mammoth. I also decided to order a gig bag and a Wessex Chief mouthpiece along with my bell while I was at it, which will be shipped as soon as the folks at Wessex return from China.

Martin Wilk manufactures reproduction bits, in case you're interested.

As far as the bit that I am missing, I'm aware of Martin Wilk's replica bits, and I have heard nothing but good things about them, However, I am hoping I can find someone that might have one somewhere in a spare parts drawer that they wouldn't mind parting with before I spend a couple hundred on some replica bits. If not, I will definitely go with the Wilk replicas.

[SousaWarrior9]

Update:
The folks at Wessex have supplied me with some great accessories for my Mammoth:
I now have an upright bell (with a soft case), a gig bag, and a Chief mouthpiece.
The upright bell sounds great on this horn, and gives it a more focused sound, I think.

Pictures:
Martin with Wessex XL Bell:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4BA8g ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4BA8g ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank
Upright Bell closeup:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4BA8g ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank
Wessex Chief:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4BA8g ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank
Gig Bags:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4BA8g ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank

Finish on the bell looks excellent and feels very good. The fit was very tight, which makes me suspect the bell collar on the Mammoth may be just slightly out of round, but I'm not sure. Either way, I'm very happy with it overall. Thanks to the whole Wessex crew.

Now all I need is to track down that second Martin bit and my Mammoth will be complete!

[imperialbari]

Looks interesting!

Do the two bells have the same pitch? Or do you have to pull the tuning slide for one of them?

Relating to one of the above postings:

Will the Wessex upright bell also fit into the collar of your Conn 20J?

If so, how much does the pitch differ between the two bells?

My interest comes from a wish for an upright bell for my Conn 40K, which sits stationary in a Wenger chair. The upright bell would make it easier to mute the 40K. And then I here make the assumption that the 20J and the 40K have the same collar dimensions, even if the 40K is from 1927.

Klaus

[SousaWarrior9]

Looks interesting!

Do the two bells have the same pitch? Or do you have to pull the tuning slide for one of them?

Relating to one of the above postings:

Will the Wessex upright bell also fit into the collar of your Conn 20J?

If so, how much does the pitch differ between the two bells?

My interest comes from a wish for an upright bell for my Conn 40K, which sits stationary in a Wenger chair. The upright bell would make it easier to mute the 40K. And then I here make the assumption that the 20J and the 40K have the same collar dimensions, even if the 40K is from 1927.

Klaus

I haven't noticed any significant pitch differences between the two bells.

Regarding the 20J bell question: the bell collars on the mammoth are not the same as the 20J. The 20J collar is smaller than the mammoth.
A 20J bell does fit on a 20K sousaphone, however. I'm not sure if the 40K has the same diameter bell collar as a 20K but if it does, a 20J upright bell will fit it.

[SousaWarrior9]

How tall is the MArtin with the Wessex bell?

Thanks.

Just shy of 40" tall, I believe.

[SousaWarrior9]

UPDATE:

Suitable bits have been found for both my and my friend's Martin, thanks to Lee Stofer.
Lee took the original bit that came with each horn, along with a York bit for the other Mammoth, and a Selmer bit for my horn, and shaped them on a mandrel for an air tight fit. Now, the bits or both horns lock into place with no movement whatsoever. The way the bits were previously, there was a minuscule amount of air leaking out between the bits, which has now been remedied. In addition to that, Lee also found that the water keys on both horns had been improperly repaired at some point, and were bent in such a way that the pad was not resting evenly on the nipple of the water key, so, again, a small bit of air was leaking here as well. With both of these air leak problems fixed, both horns now play with a much more punchy tone with significantly less 'fuzzyness'. Its amazing how such seemingly small repairs make such a difference in how a horn plays.
Lee also took the liberty of knocking out some of the larger dents in the outer bows of the horn, as well as buffing out some tarnish that had accumulated on the main tuning slide crook.

All in all, both horns now look and sound a whole lot better thanks to some quick minor repairs. Always consistently impressed with Lee's work and just wanted to give him another shutout for the work that he does, as well as updating Martin enthusiasts on the status of the horns.

Pictures:

My Mammoth with original Martin bit paired with the new Selmer bit:
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B4BA8g ... sp=sharing" target="_blank" target="_blank

Back view of the horn with major dents removed, only minor dings remain:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4BA8 ... WV0Y2VKLUE" target="_blank" target="_blank

Tuning slide crook, with correctly bent water key, new pad, and tarnish removed:
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B4BA8 ... mlPem5IX1k" target="_blank" target="_blank