compensating for the compensating system Bookmark and Share

The bulk of the musical talk

compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Thu Aug 31, 2017 6:55 pm

topic: 3+1 (or the 983 system...whatever) compensating tubas and tuning
=================================================================

It's really neat that a fully-chromatic instrument can be built with only four valves, but every tuning system (with up to 5 valves) has a few shortcomings.

Here's the worst shortcoming in the 3+1 Blaikley system:

Considering all of those extra slides and all of that extra gadgetry, the low F and low E (Eb tuba) are still not quite down (pitch) where they need to be.
Low Bb (ok), low A (ok), low Ab (ok), low G (ok), even low Gb (ok)...but - now that SO MUCH tubing has been added on to tubing that has been added on (just as with any brass instrument combined-valves tuning system) the ratios are off, and there's no more "give" to give. The system is "out of gas", low F (134) is significantly sharp, and low E (1234) is quite sharp...

...so why not do this?
LENGTHEN the #3 compensating slide so that
- low Gb/F# (not the most-commonly encountered pitch in the world of tuba music) is saggy (flat) in pitch
- low F (voila !) is right in tune
- low E (thank-you!) is only a little bit sharp

:arrow: Two more-commonly-played pitches would be more in-tune, while sacrificing the intonation (a little bit, but still usable) of a pitch which is less-commonly-played. NO other pitches would be effected in the least. :|

btw: Edgware Street (London) Besson/B&H BBb tubas' .728" bore "front-side" #2 slides will slide right in to Edgware Street (London) Besson/B&H tubas' #3 compensating slides' outer slide tubes, and are the perfect length for this "fix".

If have to wonder if most makes BBb tubas' front-side #2 slides will also fit into same-make Eb tubas' #3 compensating slides (i.e. the same crook, and the same geometry, other than length).

bloke "...and yes, I understand there will be
1. those who claim that this is not a problem,
~ as well as ~
2. those who will simply view this as a bad idea because 'that's just not the way it's done'." :D
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 38003
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby Donn » Thu Aug 31, 2017 9:54 pm

When you say "lengthen the #3 compensating slide" ... this is the additional tubing that's part of the 4th valve circuit? Does it really have a slide, or would that be a customization?

Not the common #3 valve tubing (which might also be maybe a hair flat for B/F#/etc.)
User avatar
Donn
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 4790
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:58 pm
Location: Seattle, ☯

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby Dan Tuba » Thu Aug 31, 2017 10:47 pm

It seems like a good idea to me.
Schiller/JinBao 210 BBb
JP 3+1 Compensating EEb
RT50
Dan Tuba
pro musician
pro musician
 
Posts: 172
Joined: Tue Jan 28, 2014 9:21 pm
Location: Waynesville, Missouri

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby TheGoyWonder » Thu Aug 31, 2017 11:07 pm

also if you can get 3rd long enough to use 1-3 and still have 2-3, you can put 4th longer (until 2-4 is too flat). i guess you gotta really looking for maximum length to do that.
TheGoyWonder
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 463
Joined: Tue Mar 03, 2015 9:11 am

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby Bill B » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:02 am

What about a kicker on the 1st, 3rd or 4th slide?
Bill B
lurker
lurker
 
Posts: 6
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 11:24 am

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby oedipoes » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:55 am

bloke wrote:topic: 3+1 (or the 983 system...whatever) compensating tubas and tuning
=================================================================
LENGTHEN the #3 compensating slide


It is kind of common practice to have this compensating slide way out.
On my Besson, it is as far out as possible without falling apart.
I remember Mr. Tuba mentioning lengthening it to BBb tuba - size for some customers.

So, seems like a good idea...
User avatar
oedipoes
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 705
Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2008 3:47 pm
Location: Belgium

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby AndyCat » Fri Sep 01, 2017 2:16 am

oedipoes wrote:
bloke wrote:topic: 3+1 (or the 983 system...whatever) compensating tubas and tuning
=================================================================
LENGTHEN the #3 compensating slide


It is kind of common practice to have this compensating slide way out.
On my Besson, it is as far out as possible without falling apart.
I remember Mr. Tuba mentioning lengthening it to BBb tuba - size for some customers.

So, seems like a good idea...


Yep, mine has some string to stop me blowing it out as it's all the way out
Andy Cattanach, UK
Fodens Band, Intrada Brass Ensemble.
Yamaha Neo BBb x 2 (2011 and 2016), B+H 3v Imperial BBb.
Yamaha YBL613H Bass Trombone.
Mike Finn 3 and 4, Yeo Signature Mouthpieces.
User avatar
AndyCat
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 431
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:11 am
Location: Preston, UK

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Fri Sep 01, 2017 9:55 am

There are only a few responses here so far, but am I picking up that there is an agreement that this may be a VERY GOOD IDEA, and that (possibly?) that ONLY REASON that it's not been done before (on euphoniums, Eb's, and BBb's) is due to (simply) "that's the way that it has always been done"...??

To those who don't quite understand the slide to which I'm referring, it is THIS one (pictured below)...

As can be seen, I ~HAVE~ substituted a same-make (.728" bore) BBb tuba's FRONT SIDE #2 valve slide for the (inadequate length, imo) #3 Eb tuba compensating slide. ...Seriously, the low Gb/F# is NOT particularly flat, and EASY to push up to pitch, particularly (as we are all familiar with this tendency) when playing that pitch loudly.

Image
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 38003
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby iiipopes » Fri Sep 01, 2017 10:05 am

I like it.
"Bessophone" w/ 2-piece Imperial Blokepiece,
Lexan 32.6 Modified Helleberg rim & modified .080 extender
Wessex BR115 w/ Wick Ultra SMB6
King Super 20 trumpet w/ Bach 3C/76
Fanned fret bass and electric guitars
User avatar
iiipopes
Utility Infielder
Utility Infielder
 
Posts: 7558
Joined: Tue Sep 06, 2005 1:10 am

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby Casca Grossa » Fri Sep 01, 2017 12:34 pm

Makes sense to me
Mack-a-clone 186 "Chairman Mao"
Blokepiece Imperial #2 Fair Dinkum Profundo Rim
Why have 3 valves when you can have 6 and a main tuning slide kicker???
Casca Grossa
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 569
Joined: Sun May 22, 2011 8:36 am
Location: Reading, PA

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby ken k » Fri Sep 01, 2017 1:44 pm

I concur....Mine is pulled out as far as it can go without falling off.

kk
Miraphone Norwegian Star Eb tuba
B&H Imperial Eb tuba
1919 Pan American BBb Helicon
1924 Buescher BBb tuba (Dr. Suessaphone)
1990 Honda GL1500 Goldwing
2001 Mazda Miata
User avatar
ken k
6 valves
6 valves
 
Posts: 2236
Joined: Mon Mar 22, 2004 12:02 am
Location: out standing in my field....

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby pjv » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:41 am

Never played Eb (unfortunately)
But
What's with the ridiculously long 3rdV slides?
Seems like a lot of (unnecessary?) extra metal.
Or is it to tune the 3rdV down another 1/2 step?
User avatar
pjv
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 690
Joined: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:39 am

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby Wyvern » Sat Sep 02, 2017 4:39 pm

I have already done this on the Wessex Eb tubas, extending the 3rd compensating slide by 2cm (0.8") each leg and adding pull ring. That was one of the first improvements I made.
See our fantastic new website at www.Wessex-Tubas.com

Visit our Facebook page
User avatar
Wyvern
Wessex Tubas
Wessex Tubas
 
Posts: 4626
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:00 pm
Location: Hampshire, England when not travelling around the world on Wessex business

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby DonShirer » Sat Sep 02, 2017 5:57 pm

     If that's what you did with the Bombino, Jonathan, it seems to work.
Don Shirer
Westbrook, CT
User avatar
DonShirer
4 valves
4 valves
 
Posts: 541
Joined: Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:08 am
Location: Westbrook, CT

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby Wyvern » Sat Sep 02, 2017 6:08 pm

DonShirer wrote:     If that's what you did with the Bombino, Jonathan, it seems to work.

Yes, it was also done with the Bombino and Excelsior BBb
See our fantastic new website at www.Wessex-Tubas.com

Visit our Facebook page
User avatar
Wyvern
Wessex Tubas
Wessex Tubas
 
Posts: 4626
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:00 pm
Location: Hampshire, England when not travelling around the world on Wessex business

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby barry grrr-ero » Sat Sep 02, 2017 9:33 pm

I had one of those 'stop thingees' put on the 3rd valve compensating slide, just so that I could pull it waaay out w/o the worry of it falling on to the floor. This was back when I had a Besson 3+1 eefer.

I'm going to say, quite categorically, that 5 valve systems are STUPID on Eb and F instruments, UNLESS you make the 5th valve a tri-tone valve (like on the older Gronitz Eb), or a 'quint valve' (lowering the horn a full perfect fifth). I say this as someone who played the compensating system for several decades and found few problems with it.
barry grrr-ero
3 valves
3 valves
 
Posts: 462
Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2008 4:40 am

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby humBell » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:04 am

This may be an obvious question, but can the Eb 3rd comp loop slide now be put in the BBb second valve loop with no real loss of functionality? Other than the recent "mystery solved" thread, i have not heard of tuba players pulling the 2nd valve slide much as a general rule.

Anyway, i am looking forward to perhaps generate my own practial experiences to contribute to this thread...
Ol' et sock & tuba
humBell
bugler
bugler
 
Posts: 224
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: North Eastern U.S.

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:08 am

humBell wrote:This may be an obvious question, but can the Eb 3rd comp loop slide now be put in the BBb second valve loop with no real loss of functionality? Other than the recent "mystery solved" thread, i have not heard of tuba players pulling the 2nd valve slide much as a general rule.

Anyway, i am looking forward to perhaps generate my own practial experiences to contribute to this thread...


' prolly...if you own two same-make instruments that also have the same crooks/geometry.
Of course, there would then be a significant bore gap in the #2 front-side slide on the BBb.
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 38003
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby bloke » Sun Sep 03, 2017 10:43 am

...extending the 3rd compensating slide by 2cm (0.8") each leg and adding pull ring...


That may possibly (??) be scantly enough, but more is beneficial. Low F#, with most of these instruments, hardly seems to move (doesn't suffer from much out-of-tune "flatness" as this loop is lengthened) as the low F (far more commonly-played by most all players) is dialed in...and E (obviously) continues to benefit as more length is added - to the point of being actually usable.

The thing is this:
Euphoniums need this as well. :|
User avatar
bloke
musician/technician/innovator
musician/technician/innovator
 
Posts: 38003
Joined: Sat May 08, 2004 6:04 pm
Location: western Tennessee

Re: compensating for the compensating system

Postby Wyvern » Sun Sep 03, 2017 11:13 am

I did consider adding more than 2cm, but then players that are used to lipping complain of the tuba playing flat. 2cm longer slide enables 4cm longer overall pull so will solve problem without the slides being dangerously near to falling out.
bloke wrote:The thing is this:
Euphoniums need this as well. :|

I personally do not find this problem with Wessex Dolce euphonium, but am open to being told otherwise by real euphonium players
See our fantastic new website at www.Wessex-Tubas.com

Visit our Facebook page
User avatar
Wyvern
Wessex Tubas
Wessex Tubas
 
Posts: 4626
Joined: Fri Sep 01, 2006 7:00 pm
Location: Hampshire, England when not travelling around the world on Wessex business

Next

Return to TubeNet

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot], geomiklas, Google [Bot], pittbassdaddy, SteveP, Tubajug and 24 guests