Mouthpiece receiver depth on EEb.

[fsgazda]

I have an M and M clone of the Besson EEb compensating tuba. I use a Wick 3L mouthpiece, which I like. My question is the mouthpiece does not go as far in the receiver as I expect. The partials are not very well in tune on the horn. That could be because it's a stencil, but I know that shank depth can mess with that as well. I have attached a couple of pictures. Does this look like the mouthpiece is going in the correct amount?

[Donn]

That may show an exceptional attention to detail on the part of the copiers, as you might find that the Besson itself would also have a slightly undersized receiver. This is based on a report from one Besson owner, who found that only the "comes with" Alliance T3 mouthpiece really fit to normal depth. Other mouthpieces varied - enough that I thought it was pretty interesting, but apparently no one else does. The picture is interesting, but could you give us the insertion depth, in inches or millimeters, for those who are too lazy to try to estimate it from the picture?

[fsgazda]

The mouthpiece goes in 15/16 of an inch. The shank itself is 1 and 15/16" long.

Thanks!

[Donn]

Yes, that's the depth my source reported for a couple mouthpieces, including a "Sellmansberger", (? sounds like one of those made-up German names.) Some went in a full inch. I'm not sure whether this was a 982 or 984, but reportedly German made. Standard depth seems more like 1 & 1/16, but I guess people mostly aren't too particular.

[knarfman]

This probably won't help too much because both the horn and mouthpiece are different, but just as a data point I use a Wessex "Solo" compensating EEb with a Wick 3L, but the "Heritage" (bowl-shaped outside) Wick rather than the "Classic" Wick shown in your photos. The shank on my MP goes in 1 & 5/16" (I have two of those mouthpieces and they're consistent). I don't know how much Jonathan has tweaked the receivers on his horns from the original clones (and mine was a demonstrator), but to my eyes your picture looks like the MP isn't going in far enough, as you said originally.

[LCH3]

The mouthpiece goes in 15/16 of an inch. The shank itself is 1 and 15/16" long.

Thanks!

My Wick 3L goes into the German made Besson 982 1", maybe just a tiny bit more with a twist.

I know James Gourlay uses a Wick 3 (not 3L) on his Besson 980 and wraps tape around the end to make it fit.

Bloke has said his (small) British shank on an Imperial cup with a Profundo (deeper) rim works well with Eb tubas. I found that scenario did improve individual note tuning on the 982 from Eb below staff to F above the staff.

[MikeW]

My "original Boosey and Hawkes" Imperial Eb (the instrument on which the clones are based) has a Small Euro receiver, and American Standard sized mouthpieces only go in about that depth. Probably your clone has a Small Euro receiver.

Check the receiver opening: if it's American Standard it should be about .58", and a Small Euro should be about .56", depending on wear & tear, design tolerance, etc.

Similar problems have been discussed on TN before. Alternative solutions include:

• Replace the receiver on your clone with an American Standard receiver (possibly something from a Yamaha? ) this fixes the problem, and vastly increases your choice of mouthpieces (any American Standard piece should fit).
• If there is enough metal on the receiver, have it reamed out to accept the American Standard shank.
• Get a mouthpiece with a Small Euro (aka. "British" or "American Eb") shank. Many Tube-Netters recommend the Wicks 3, especially for solo work. Personally, I prefer a Wicks 2, or better yet a Helleberg, for supporting an ensemble, but that is largely a matter of your sound preference.
• Have the shank of your 3L turned down. This MAY effectively feather the tip of the shank, which MAY reduce the gap effect, and thus MAY reduce slotting. You MAY even like that.

[fsgazda]

So just a Wick 3 will fit? I guess I assumed that anything listed as small shank was the old small (bass trombone sized) shank.

Thanks for all of the feedback.

[Donn]

if it's American Standard it should be about .58", and a Small Euro should be about .56"

The way I figure it, that difference would push the shank out about 3/8 inch. The present case, it looks to me like we're talking about more like 1/8 inch.

Matt Walter's numbers (at shank end) are small .490, standard .520, euro .530, large .550. According to me, a Wick 2L at shank end is at least .530. (But as I mentioned in my of-interest-to-no-one post on that subject last week, my measurements may be unreliable.)

So just a Wick 3 will fit? I guess I assumed that anything listed as small shank was the old small (bass trombone sized) shank.

That's about right - my Wick 5 is roughly like a large trombone shank. It will fall into your receiver - too small, I'm betting.

A light ream on the receiver might be in order. Won't take much, less than 1/100 inch.

[Wyvern]

This probably won't help too much because both the horn and mouthpiece are different, but just as a data point I use a Wessex "Solo" compensating EEb with a Wick 3L, but the "Heritage" (bowl-shaped outside) Wick rather than the "Classic" Wick shown in your photos. The shank on my MP goes in 1 & 5/16" (I have two of those mouthpieces and they're consistent). I don't know how much Jonathan has tweaked the receivers on his horns from the original clones (and mine was a demonstrator), but to my eyes your picture looks like the MP isn't going in far enough, as you said originally.

The Wessex EEb has a completely different lead pipe and receiver from Jinbao

[MikeW]

So just a Wick 3 will fit? I guess I assumed that anything listed as small shank was the old small (bass trombone sized) shank.

Thanks for all of the feedback.

The Bach catalogue lists "Bass Trombone" as .496" at the tip, so it's actually theoretically a tad bigger than the Small Euro Tuba, which is usually quoted as .490"

The 3L (L for large, according to Wick) is not small shank, it's American Standard, with a tip diameter of .520".

The next size up is European Standard, which is .530", .538", or .540", depending on who you ask.

Some European makers use "S" (for small) to Indicate American Standard. I think they use XS for "extra small" to mean the British (Small Euro) size. There may even be a politically incorrect pattern there if you look for it.

The truly wonderful thing about standards is that you have so many to choose from.

[Donn]

i.e. Mouthpiece A reaches in toward the choke-point (i.e. actual beginning of the mouthpipe tube) to within 1/32" or 1/16" of the point to where Mouthpiece B reaches, but Tuba A's receiver is short, and doesn't cover up as much of a mouthpiece's shank as does Tuba B's receiver.

Where would you expect to see that choke point in mouthpiece B, in terms of distance from the large end of the receiver?

The 3L (L for large, according to Wick) is not small shank, it's American Standard, with a tip diameter of .520".

Is that your measurement, or more of an assumption? I measured, and I'm saying mine is .530+. I'd love to hear about someone else's measurement.

[Donn]

The point I was trying to make

Sure, and you're in no way required to answer my question, I just thought maybe you'd know the answer.

[GC]

It has always seemed to me that the Wick "L" shanks are in between American and Euro sizes, and that inconsistencies in the sizes of receivers add to the confusion. This from a person who owns no measuring tools other than a few rulers. I've just observed which mouthpieces fit different horns in very different ways.

[iiipopes]

When I had my Besson 3-valve comp with the factory small receiver, my Wick 1 had the .490 tip and fit perfectly, just as Matt Walters describes. All my "American" mouthpieces have exactly the .520 tip and have perfectly fit everything else I have owned: my Bessophone and several souzys over time of various makes.

[Donn]

Sorry, I thought it would be clear enough. I assumed B was a "standard" receiver tuba, wherein a standard American shank fits to the depth that we're accustomed to, but I neglected to say that.

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But on reflection ... I was looking for some way to distinguish tuba A's "short" receiver from a "small" receiver, and I guess there really isn't any difference. Tuba A has a "small" receiver, same thing. If all the leadpipes are the same, and the receiver interiors are a continuous uniform taper, length and width aren't independent variables. So my question is not only academic, but it's a branch of academia that is of not so great interest as I imagined.

[Donn]

and someone could easily mistake that for not being inserted as far

I think I see that, by "as far", you mean relative to the back of the receiver, not the front. We naturally measure the insertion depth from the front, of course, and may not know where the back is (hence the question - without some idea of a normal receiver length, we have no way to distinguish "tuba A" from a small receiver & small leadpipe setup that calls for a smaller shank in order to maintain the prescribed distance to the back end of the receiver.)

[Donn]

"How much of a (reverse-tapered, compared to the expansion that occurs in the entire remainder of the instrument) receiver's interior is left exposed in front of the choke point" (where the mouthpipe tube begins – as far as most are concerned) is the only significant measurement

So you have measured it! I feel we're getting close!

[fsgazda]

Out of curiosity I tried a variety of other mouthpieces (including a 24AW, a Canadian Brass Arnold Jacobs, and a Helleberg 7B) and they all sit a bit further out then on my old Conn 5J also (about the same as the Wick 3L).

Talked to my repair tech today. We may go with reaming the receiver (or replacing it if he can find the correct one).

Thanks for everyone's feedback.