lacquer or silver...?? LOL !!!

[Three Valves]

Silver tubas remind me a stainless appliances and marble countertops,

Less durable, higher maintenance and more money?

Um, no thanks.

Yes, satin silver looks yummy. Satin finish lacquer is even yummier!!

[Donn]

A few people seem to think that a tuba finish is a right or wrong choice, where of course they know the right answer. I'm not addressing any such person, in my follow-up post on bloke's thread here, since the following is purely a matter of taste.

I was just polishing up an old tuba a couple days ago, and got to thinking, as I often do, about "satin" silver finishes and how they can be really different from one to the next. My old tuba:


A French saxophone from possibly the same year in the mid '20s:


I hope my photos show that the tuba finish is less aggressively blasted, so there's quite a bit of flat surface around the pits. The outcome is a finish that looks like natural metal, you can see things reflected in it for example, but it's toned down a bit from bright silver. The engraved area is bright, and there's a subtle difference.

The more aggressively blasted French finish gives it a frosty white look, with a very high contrast with any bright areas. The depth and quality of the silver is good and the color has held up over these many decades. It's a little warmer than the photo shows, because I polished this area up a little - the unpolished silver has taken a cast more towards yellow/orange, though only very slightly.

Opinions? For me, there's no question: frosty white is as dorky as it gets, while the light satin in the first picture is much better than plain bright finish.

[Donn]

I did some polishing before those pictures. The first one is a full size tuba, 20 inch bell, with a lot of blackened surface, and by my standards it wasn't much trouble to polish up, as far as I wanted (not a complete job at all.) Much easier than the heavier satin treatment on the saxophone, though it's hardly tarnished at all.

[Donn]

I suppose now there can't be a picture, because the brightness would be too much for your camera ...

[toobagrowl]

Frosted silver on really old (many decades/century) tubas will 'wear down' to satin and even bright/mirror finish on contact points after decades of use. I think people are drawn to silver plated finishes because it really catches the eye. Silver finish isn't that hard to maintain if you keep your horn in a bag or case. But it tarnishes pretty fast out in the open; especially if you live in a part of the country that has more seasons and humidity.

All said though, I still prefer lacquer finish overall for the points Bloke mentioned above. Clear or lightly-tinted lacquer finish gives a nice brass or gold 'look', is durable, doesn't stink and easy to 'patch up' after repairs. And you can do anywhere from mirror/bright finish to frosted lacquer finish from various cheap lacquer sprays. I like the 'soft sheen' look (between mirror and satin); I got lucky and did it to the inside of the bell on my M-W CC. The horn player in my quintet even noticed it and commented how beautiful it looked I dunno about it being beautiful, but I like the look

Point is, lacquer is cheap and fun to experiment with; getting different finishes

[T. J. Ricer]

As a matter of practicality, appearance, and economics, I believe it's time to begin to discourage the since-1990-or-so band-director bright-silver-sousaphones craze.
Unless there is EXTRAORDINARY care (avoiding damage) and EXTRAORDINARY maintenance (rigorous cleaning schedule), they become (within a handful of years) "grey and brown" sousaphones...with a touch of black here-and...

Hey Bloke, you reminded me of my high school marching experience where the tuba section would get together every Friday between the end of school and the call time for football games and have “polishing parties.” We got along surprisingly well as a group and probably took inordinate pride in our silver King sousaphones... even made shirts one year that read: Sycamore Silver Sousaphone Section! That being said, I can count the time between high school and now in (plural) decades, so who knows how they do it now.

-T. J. “Down memory lane, now get off my lawn” Ricer

[Bnich93]

I wish my HB50 was lacquer rather than silver. Sure it looks magnificent when it was polished five minutes prior, but the second you pick it up and play it it looks terrible. Not to mention when spit runs out of the lead pipe onto the bell every time the horn is set down. I never polish my miraphone, and it always looks good. This horn must be polished back stage just before a performance.

Can I hear the difference? if they made either of the horns I own in the opposite configuration I still highly doubt it would change anything.

[Voisi1ev]

As a matter of practicality, appearance, and economics, I believe it's time to begin to discourage the since-1990-or-so band-director bright-silver-sousaphones craze.
Unless there is EXTRAORDINARY care (avoiding damage) and EXTRAORDINARY maintenance (rigorous cleaning schedule), they become (within a handful of years) "grey and brown" sousaphones...with a touch of black here-and-there.

...and (well...) they cost the taxpayers thousands more (than lacquer finish instruments) as well. A compromise would be fiberglass bodies and silver plated bells (with an additional set of "practice" fiberglass bells). Fiberglass/brass sousaphones sound the same as brass/brass sousaphones. The sound-bounce off the brass bell elbow and the after-ring of the brass pancake are all that is involved in the characteristic sound of a brass (vs. fiberglass) sousaphone.

The first "silver" marching instruments were the one-valve or two-valve G bugles, and those were CHROME plated (as is the hardware on percussion instruments).

Confirmed.

Source: Band teacher/tuba player who bought a bunch of silver instruments the first few years of his career and now in year 13 wishes they were lacquer.




I'm 50/50 on my horns. I like the look of silver plating more, I don't think it changes the sound, but I hate cleaning them and dislike when they look gross. I have 3 horns and only really looked for silver once, the other two were horns I like that happened to be silver and good price.

[bort]

Not sure I've ever seen a lacquer HB-50... but I suppose it's possible. What's funny to me about the big horns being silver plated is that when they are shiny, they look great... and when they're old, they look great. Anything in-between is a little funny looking, and is only truly noticed by the player. Unless it's like gross and black with tarnish, most people won't really notice or care, unless you've made it a point to keep it shiny and meticulous, and all of a sudden one day it's not that way anymore. Even then, anybody more than a few feet away will not see a difference.

I guess it's like ANY kind of aging, though... people can go to extreme lengths to try to maintain a youthful appearance. However, age always wins that battle. People (and tubas!) spend the vast majority of their life NOT being young... so unless you plan to make it a constant battle, it might be better to form a realistic plan you can live with moving forward. Polish once a semester, once a year... only touch up the bell or places that you are worried about people seeing. Completely letting it go might be the wrong answer, but if you're worried about it looking bad the second you pick it up... you'll go crazy.

Frankly, I really don't like raw brass, and it's something I'm trying to come to terms with about my PT7. I would be much happier with a fully-lacquered PT7 than a raw brass PT7 (the smell, the "green", the skin irritation I get...). However, at least I know that raw brass is going to remain dull. Even when you shine it up, it goes back to dull pretty quickly, so there's no real need to bother with it. Lacquer will eventually wear and get spotty... but when it's already stripped of lacquer, there's not much left that can happen.

Besides, it's nice to NOT have a shiny tuba in the back row, particularly when it's so large. The last thing I want is to draw even more attention to myself. Something that's huge AND shiny is just too much attention, and to me brings an expectation of being a tremendous and perfect musician, to match the appearance of the tuba. Bring something that's big and dull, set the expectations low, and then surprise them with better-than-mediocre results.

[Donn]

But it tarnishes pretty fast out in the open; especially if you live in a part of the country that has more seasons and humidity.

It's interesting to hear about local differences in rate of silver tarnish. First time I've heard it has anything to do with temperature or humidity, and I'm a little skeptical about that, but I'm no chemist. Some say it's about whether you use natural gas or similar fuels in the house, which does perhaps sound plausible - but in terms of impurities, particularly sulfur, that vary depending on the source, not because of the basic hydrocarbon nature of the fuels. Some areas might be perhaps even for geological reasons high in atmospheric sulfur or nitrogen oxides - Hawaii's Big Island an obvious example. Near the sea, people have more trouble with corrosion from airborn salts.

And then there's body chemistry, which reportedly differs enough that some people's touch is notably corrosive.

[Bnich93]

Not sure I've ever seen a lacquer HB-50.

I'm fairly confident that they did not make them, same with silver Mirafone 181s.

Each would surely sound better with the other finish! Its all a big conspiracy really.

[Donn]

Something that's huge AND shiny is just too much attention, and to me brings an expectation of being a tremendous and perfect musician, to match the appearance of the tuba.

On the other hand, to me it says "rookie." "I just bought this shiny tuba, via mail-order from Woodwind & Brasswind." I would never care to play a shiny tuba, if I could possibly avoid it.

That's why this discussion is mostly between you and bloke and many other players who are primarily interested in legit performance genres where brass players normally have shiny instruments. For me, "lacquer" means, like, "50%". All the disadvantages of raw brass, but far uglier and with no hope of improvement. Silver plate is much more more presentable at 50%. I do have a couple lacquered instruments that are 50 or 80 years old and still close to 100%, but that isn't the loveliest look either. Lacquer for the short term win, sure.

[bort]

Near the sea, people have more trouble with corrosion from airborn salts.

Isn't that the reason for nickel-plated instruments in northern Europe, on the Baltic Sea/North Sea?

[bort]

Something that's huge AND shiny is just too much attention, and to me brings an expectation of being a tremendous and perfect musician, to match the appearance of the tuba.

On the other hand, to me it says "rookie." "I just bought this shiny tuba, via mail-order from Woodwind & Brasswind." I would never care to play a shiny tuba, if I could possibly avoid it.

About 13 years ago, I bought a lightly used Miraphone 1291. Lacquer was 100%, really great condition. I took it to my band rehearsal, and the conductor (a 50+ year clarinet player in a major orchestra [i.e., "tubas are always too loud, can you hear the clarinet?!"]) took one look and said something like "oh, that's big. keep that thing under control and don't be too loud with it, ok?" It really wasn't any bigger than my previous tuba, but being new and shiny made it seem otherwise.

[ASmith]

But it tarnishes pretty fast out in the open; especially if you live in a part of the country that has more seasons and humidity.

It's interesting to hear about local differences in rate of silver tarnish. First time I've heard it has anything to do with temperature or humidity, and I'm a little skeptical about that, but I'm no chemist. Some say it's about whether you use natural gas or similar fuels in the house, which does perhaps sound plausible - but in terms of impurities, particularly sulfur, that vary depending on the source, not because of the basic hydrocarbon nature of the fuels. Some areas might be perhaps even for geological reasons high in atmospheric sulfur or nitrogen oxides - Hawaii's Big Island an obvious example. Near the sea, people have more trouble with corrosion from airborn salts.

And then there's body chemistry, which reportedly differs enough that some people's touch is notably corrosive.

I moved from NE Alabama to Oklahoma and I have noticed my horns don’t tarnish at quite the same rate, albeit very slightly, but noticeably. Also, if it weren’t for the deals I got on my horns, they’d be lacquer. I loathe polishing my horns, hence their brownish hue in the tighter areas.

[Dulac 79]

At Notre Dame- EVERY Fri night before a home game- the traditional march around the campus to the Pep Rally (high school-like on steroids). Afterwards- PARTY- except for the Bass section- for us it was 4 years of Fri nights before home games with my silver sousaphone, and my can of glass wax. Oh, the humanity...

[Cdub]

A lacquer finish nearly carefree. Spray it with furniture polish every so often to remove grease, oil, and fingerprints, and wipe it with some sort of soft cloth.

This. 100% for me. One less thing for me to focus on and worry about.

[GC]

Lacquer is subject to cracking and acid bleeds. Yes, those can be fixed. Silver horns don't have this problem, and they last. Silver has its own issues.

My monster Conn is 104 years old, and the silver is around 90%. When Lee took it on trade-in, it was the color of a black music stand, but he got it shiny bright again. I see few lacquered horns that age that have close to an intact finish, though there are some. I still wonder why there are very few horns made that have a lacquer or epoxy coating over silver. A late friend had a 1905 silver cornet that had been bright polished and lacquered, and it looked like new; he cleaned it off carefully after every use.

But few people buy a horn with the idea of extreme longevity in mind. They buy it to use NOW. When it comes to convenience for current use, I'm on the side of lacquer, and the next instruments I buy will probably be lacquered.

[Donn]

How long it will hold up is half the problem, the other half is how the failure looks. Of course they aren't equally important at the same time, because A is a condition of B, but silver plating failure isn't as gross, so it isn't as much of an issue.

But the rarity of intact lacquer finishes from 104 years ago might be not entirely due to lacquer failure. I don't know when they started doing that routinely, wasn't it more like 90 years ago? My '41 tuba had the miserable pebbly remnants of what must have been original lacquer, but when my mid '20s tubas were made, it was silver or nothing.

[GC]

Thanks for the good points, gentlemen.