Wessex Chicago Presence mini-review

[kingrob76]

While I realize Chris Olka has ruined the market for reviews on this instrument I thought it might be useful to share my thoughts and observations. I bought this horn used about 6 weeks ago - my understanding is it was picked from the first batch made available in the US. With a serial number of "10", I'm inclined to agree. I spent a lot of time at the Army Tuba Workshop this winter playing 6/4 horns and solicited the playing / listening feedback of many players I know on a lot of horns and found this model to be very agreeable so I was pleased when one came available used.

The Good

These horns are FUN to play. The decreased bell flare reminds me of a early Thor I played and wished I had purchased because none of the 5450's I've played since impressed me as much. Response is very good for the most part (see below for more) and intonation is also very good. Generally speaking I would have liked to have seen longer 4th slide tubes as my 4th slide is usually pulled about 5" or so, and a slighty shorter 5th as mine is all the way in and just a tad flatter than I would like it to be. The horn isn't that old but the silver plate looks like it will hold up pretty well. The horn is pretty responsive to changes in mouthpieces although I will admit I am still looking for an "everyday" mouthpiece (a Giddings MMVI CC is the leader in the clubhouse and probable winner). I spent more than 10 years playing a 1291 which is the easiest horn to play I've ever owned so I'm a bit spoiled in the very low range as this horn requires a bit more work - but still pretty darn easy. I've always been able to turn a horn up to 11 and get sideways looks from conductors, string bass sections, and jealous bass trombone players and while I can still do that here I love the way this horn rings when I play soft. I still need to record it in a hall and see what I get, but so far I like it.

The Bad

After a few weeks with the horn I decided to take it in for a chem clean and inspection. The tubes for the 4th valve were slightly wider at the bottom that the tubes in the bottom 4th valve slide, meaning every time I pulled the 4th slide to empty water I had to pinch the slide just slightly to get it back in, so I knew there was an alignment issue. This was confirmed by my repair guy and he was able to adjust it without much hassle - adding a water key to that slide is on my to do list. The alignment of the valves was "way" off (according to my repair guy) on all the valves and was also adjusted, but we found that the ports on the pistons on at least 2 of the valves do not match up precisely with the ports in the valve block itself, particularly on the 3rd valve. We could line up one port but not the other as the spans are different. After the adjustment the feel of the horn improved noticeably but anything involving the 3rd valve doesn't feel *quite* as centered as the rest of the horn. Now, I'm talking teeny tiny shades of gray here in term of feel and response, but it's there. It is, however, more than workable. My tech and I are discussing options for further correcting the alignment. The entire horn is silver plated, inside and out. This actually created a problem pulling the rotor for the fifth valve which required heat/oil/heat/oil for the better part of a shop day to free. We suspect the extra silver in the casing was to blame. The horn itself is very "soft" - very thin metal all over which could be a issue for some people, but made for extraction of the 5th a very tedious exercise. Lastly, the valve guides already needed replacement - Wessex sent me a set for free and they work perfectly.

Please note that by and large, the build quality is very good and I am really picking nits. This was a good horn when I got it and we just made it a little better by fixing a few things.

The Rest

Pure personal preference - not a huge fan of the engraved finger buttons. I've always wanted to find a finger button, or material for a finger button, that provided a higher amount of "friction", meaning something that would keep my lazy *ss from having my fingers slide off on the odd occasion while playing. Your mileage will undoubtedly vary.

In summary - Yes, I would buy this horn again and I'm super glad I got this one. I would LOVE to try this horn with a set of MAW valves but when I reached out to Martin he said he didn't have anything for it nor did he have plans to make any. Because the valve block is similar to several others it's plausible a set of MAWs made for another model would work just fine, I'll have to look into that. Were I an extremely curious person with no real limitations on disposable income I might consider picking up a bell from a Wessex Chicago York model and having a detachable bell setup put in place so I could switch to either bell flare, but, that's WAY down the road and even then only a remote possibility... but a neat idea nonetheless

[MartyNeilan]

we found that the ports on the pistons on at least 2 of the valves do not match up precisely with the ports in the valve block itself, particularly on the 3rd valve. We could line up one port but not the other as the spans are different. After the adjustment the feel of the horn improved noticeably but anything involving the 3rd valve doesn't feel *quite* as centered as the rest of the horn. Now, I'm talking teeny tiny shades of gray here in term of feel and response, but it's there. It is, however, more than workable. My tech and I are discussing options for further correcting the alignment. The entire horn is silver plated, inside and out. This actually created a problem pulling the rotor for the fifth valve which required heat/oil/heat/oil for the better part of a shop day to free. We suspect the extra silver in the casing was to blame. The horn itself is very "soft" - very thin metal all over which could be a issue for some people, but made for extraction of the 5th a very tedious exercise.

Sorry, but I don’t see these as minor issues and don’t think that a tuba approaching ten thousand dollars should have these kinds of problems.

[UDELBR]

The entire horn is silver plated, inside and out. This actually created a problem pulling the rotor for the fifth valve which required heat/oil/heat/oil for the better part of a shop day to free.

Did your repair tech try 'rebounding'? It's a standard way to remove front-loading rotors. Unscrew the front bearing cap and tap straight down onto the rotor spindle with a rawhide hammer. That usually makes the bearing plate and rotor jump up.

[kingrob76]

The position of the spindle makes getting at it straight from the rear darn near impossible, it would have to be at an angle which I suspect is not ideal. We consulted with Chuck Nickles at Wessex for any tricks, and he said we were on the right path, it just took some time.

I agree, for $10k you want as few problems as possible - this being the first production batch I would wonder what changes have been made since then... My then-brand-new Miraphone 1291 had worse alignment on the 4th valve tubes and also needed adjustment to line up the ports so I take those as more or less par for the course (oh, and a huge chunk of buffing wheel lodged in the 4th valve tubing which wasn't apparent until I hosed it out, but that's a different story) The spans on the ports not quite matching between piston and casing is of bigger concern to me, and I'm going to try and figure out if the issue is the casing or the piston and go from there. I'll also try and get measurements of the difference for discussion sake.

UPDATE: When speaking with my guy, he said the issue with the ports is very slight and he sees it fairly often on Bach trumpets, Bessons, etc. The stock pad for the downstroke of the piston was just WAY too thick.

[UDELBR]

The position of the spindle makes getting at it straight from the rear darn near impossible, .

The spindle is on the front of the instrument, so easy to access.

[kingrob76]

The position of the spindle makes getting at it straight from the rear darn near impossible, .

The spindle is on the front of the instrument, so easy to access.

Duh I totally misread your message Yes, he tried that first I think. He had some tool that screwed in it appeared (I only saw it passing) and had a handle that slid up and down - I'll admit, I leave the specifics of The Dark Arts of Instrument Repair to other people so I can focus on what my teenager is doing, or supposed to be doing.

[bort]

One of the good ones...? (Glad it is still working for you though!)

[Wyvern]

Thank you for your review ‘kingrob76’. I am pleased that you like the Chicago Presence, but am always annoyed when I hear of any technical problems. Wessex goes to a great deal of effort to quality check every tuba, with a team examining and play testing every single one before accepting, but the simple fact is that we can only spend a few minutes per tuba quality assuring, while the customer has years to find any hidden faults - but that does not make anything slipping through anything less than perfect easier to accept, even if I know similar problems equally occur in the most expensive brands (strangely rarely reported on this forum).

I did hear from previous customer that the valve alignment of another of the first batch of Chicago Presence was out, although after this was identified we could find no problems with any remaining in warehouse stock, or in any subsequent production.

Whenever a problem is identified then we do investigate how this might have been caused and what action can be taken to mitigate or stop ever happening again. It seems this was a one-off machining error. I therefore suggest if the slight misalignment worries you to email Chuck Nickles at dacapo@Wessex-tubas.com" target="_blank and he can then pick up replacement valves from the factory while he is there next week - although these will need to be lapped to fit by qualified technician.

I would suggest not even considering a removable bell. Fitting a bell collar would completely change the response of the tuba for the worst. Just practice, play and enjoy your tuba!

[kingrob76]

I was careful to try and avoid having my initial post sound like a complaint list or a trashing - neither was intended. I am of the opinion that if you look hard enough at almost ANY brass instrument you will find "something", and probably more than one "something". With my last couple horns I've made it a point to have them checked over very carefully because as I get older, play less and become less efficient with my playing I want to get all I can out of the instrument itself.

Initial alignment issues are common enough that Alan Baer started selling an port alignment kit - they were present on my 1291 as well. Tube alignment can be the result of a number of issues, not all of which are manufacturer caused. Miraphone left a piece of buffing wheel in my 4th valve slide that made a mess for about a week until it was identified with a complete flushing. I had a Cerveny Piggy (brand new at the time) with its own set of mechanical problems, and that was almost 35 years ago. Stuff happens. The horn would have been just fine had I not noticed or addressed any of my issues, but is even better now.

[groth]

I was careful to try and avoid having my initial post sound like a complaint list or a trashing - neither was intended. I am of the opinion that if you look hard enough at almost ANY brass instrument you will find "something", and probably more than one "something". With my last couple horns I've made it a point to have them checked over very carefully because as I get older, play less and become less efficient with my playing I want to get all I can out of the instrument itself.

Initial alignment issues are common enough that Alan Baer started selling an port alignment kit - they were present on my 1291 as well. Tube alignment can be the result of a number of issues, not all of which are manufacturer caused. Miraphone left a piece of buffing wheel in my 4th valve slide that made a mess for about a week until it was identified with a complete flushing. I had a Cerveny Piggy (brand new at the time) with its own set of mechanical problems, and that was almost 35 years ago. Stuff happens. The horn would have been just fine had I not noticed or addressed any of my issues, but is even better now.

You should have every right as a customer to address concerns with anything you don't like (and is genuinely wrong with the horn) especially after paying $10k for it. I see everything you said as valid. Good review!

[Fritztuba]

As Jonathan pointed out, it´s funny how people only criticize the Chinese tubas and not the expensive German tubas. I also didn´t see kingrob76´s post as criticizing either. However, to confirm this point; I bought a brand new MW piston F a few years ago and the valves were HORRIBLE. I spent many hours lapping, oiling and cleaning those valves. After a year and 100´s of hours of playing the tuba, the were still problems and I sold the tuba. I hope to have the opportunity to play one of these Wessex tubas soon. Best wishes and congratulations on your new instrument.

[Scubatuba]

I find it hilarious that you can buy a horn with that many problems and be fine with it. Really? Its the greatest horn ever, but my valves don't work and the metal is too soft....blah....you get what you pay for. Oh, by the way, felts will compress over time so there goes your alignment.

[bort]

Years ago, I took my Marzan piston tuba to Alan Baer to have it fitted with a PVAK. I met him at his house, and he worked on my tuba for about an hour, and gave me a giant earful of opinions about everything tuba related (worth the $ right there).

He quickly noticed that one(?) of the valves didn't fully align to the ports, in the way you seem to mention -- the holes in the valves and the holes in the casing just didn't match up as perfectly as they do on modern tubas. His reaction was basically "ain't s#%@ you can do about it, buy a modern tuba." He said it's not so uncommon to see that in older tubas, before the manufacturing process was made more precise and reliable... for example the MW/B&S valves have been so fine tuned over the years, that's why they use them in everything. It's pretty much guaranteed to work, fit perfectly, etc. every single time, because the manufacturing process has been so refined (also, why he can just drop-ship PVAK kits for those... they are all the same).

Your valve issue reminded me of that... even with the issue, my Marzan was a nice playing tuba. Apparently it could have been even better. But for a 40-50 year old tuba, the expectations are different.

At any rate, it's up to the buyer to decide what's worth chasing down and what's okay to live with. I can only say that for me, personally... if I were buying a brand new tuba, which is intended to be the flagship model of the brand... I'd expect more, and would likely invoke the warranty terms. I do think that Wessex listens to this feedback and does what they can to improve things moving forward. But the early adopters will always bear the weight of this.

One last thought... if things were changed at the factory to fix ALL of the design issues, ALL of the manufacturing issues, ALL of the QC issues to be 100% perfect every time in every way... and the price had to increase significantly... then what? So what if this needs to becomes a $15k tuba to be perfect? Still a lot less than the comparable German tubas, and far less than the Yamayork...

What is it the market really wants? Less expensive and close (enough), or perfect and whatever it costs?

[Wyvern]

One last thought... if things were changed at the factory to fix ALL of the design issues, ALL of the manufacturing issues, ALL of the QC issues to be 100% perfect every time in every way... and the price had to increase significantly... then what? So what if this needs to becomes a $15k tuba to be perfect? Still a lot less than the comparable German tubas, and far less than the Yamayork...

What is it the market really wants? Less expensive and close (enough), or perfect and whatever it costs?

I can truthfully say that Chuck Nickles and I are working relentlessly to correct every issue as it comes to light and not just make Wessex comparable with German tubas - but better - that is Wessex long-term goal - to which we have fully management buy-in from the factory. Getting things 100% right does not necessarily cost substantially more, but to avoid mistakes, experience is required of which German factories have 100 years head start on us.

[kingrob76]

I find it hilarious that you can buy a horn with that many problems and be fine with it. Really? Its the greatest horn ever, but my valves don't work and the metal is too soft....blah....you get what you pay for. Oh, by the way, felts will compress over time so there goes your alignment.

I don't recall what the stock material was but I don't believe it was felt - the new material is a rubber material that is synthetic and will last a lot longer than I will most likely, so I don't believe alignment will be a problem any time soon. Besides, that's what periodic maintenance is for - to check for worn items that need replacing. I never said the metal was too soft, I said the horn was soft - it's very thin metal, which has pluses and minuses. I also never said it's the greatest horn ever - exaggerate much?

There's a reason instruments, computers, refrigerators, etc. come with warranties - because manufacturing isn't perfect. Software isn't perfect, hence the need for patches and new versions. If you ever had a new car go in for work under warranty, you understand what I mean. Is a $25k Adams 6/4 a better instrument? Yeah, it is in my opinion but the price point removes it from consideration. Is a Lexus LSh a better car than my Toyota Avalon? Yeah, it probably is but again the pricing is an issue. You might get what you pay for but there is also a little thing called the law of diminishing returns. We all make trade offs when we buy instruments or we would only by one and be done.

My review was to intended to present a snapshot of the instrument from my perspective, everyone else is free to draw their own conclusions from the information.