Using Eb for Orchestra, Reasonable Limitations

[DouglasJB]

For those of you guys using Eb as "do it all horns" or as a Small CC for orchestra etc... where do you draw the line of "okay I need the big horn for this piece"? I find the Eb I'm using works beautifully for most of what I do, but as I'm starting to get back into playing (looking at going back to college for Music Ed degree) I am working on a few orchestral excerpts, the Eb sound and weight doesn't (to my ear) sound right on things such as Prokofiev and Wagner. But that could just be me getting back into playing. Back to the original question, where do you guys find the reasonable limitations of using an Eb like this?

[The Brute Squad]

As someone who had played an (albeit large) F tuba exclusively for about a decade until recently, including in orchestras, I think the only true limitation lies in you, not the horn. There are certainly difficulties (like low range and funky cross-fingerings) that there might be in an Eb vs a CC, but not limitations.

[timayer]

and the louder the brass, the more difficult it is for a huge tuba with a huge diffuse-sounding uber-conical (not-very-much-white-noise-producing) bell to balance with all of that brass section white noise.

This. It has always been amazing to me to hear world-class players warming up on stage prior to a concert, be awed by the sound, and the wondering during the concert where it all went. I have never had the privilege of hearing a similarly world-class player on a kaiser BBb, so I don't have a comparison.

I played a PT-6 for years, which isn't 6/4 but isn't all that far off. Wonderful horn. I downsized last summer to a 4/4. I haven't missed anything volume-wise in most registers. The only thing I'm missing is the final gear I used to be able to get in the low (below low Bb) range. Which I don't think I ever used anyway, at least when anyone else was listening.

HAVING SAID THAT.

Prokofiev 5, Ilya Muromets, Siegfried - Extended low register at high volumes. I would want a bigger horn were I to play it with a large orchestra. Not because the 4/4 couldn't make the sound, but it's more work on the smaller horn, and it would be exhausting. The larger horn could produce the sound with less effort, and I'd be a much happier person at the end of the concert.

[cjk]

Is the 3+1 EEb tuba still the "do it all" instrument in UK Orchestras?

I find that I rather enjoy hearing Patrick Harrild play big tuba excerpts on his Besson E flat in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tyViqSdAbJo" target="_blank

I'd be rather interested in listening to tuba heavy orchestral literature played on one of these horns if anyone knows of such on youtube.

[Donn]

"okay I need the big horn for this piece"?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but from the context I understand "big horn" to mean "bigger than Eb", not "bigger than ordinary CC." (Whatever "ordinary" may mean.)

I don't expect to ever play tuba in an orchestra, but just to state the obvious, it's up to you, what you want to sound like. Along with requirements potentially imposed by the orchestra. I'm loving my Eb tuba to death, but it isn't a contrabass and I do not accept the proposition that anyone on earth can make it sound like one, in the contrabass range below 8 foot C.

[EdFirth]

I think you play the horn that makes the sound that's in your head. If you don't like your sound on a 6/4 don't play on one but trying to impose your limitations on anyone who reads your posts is,in my opinion, counterproductive. It would seem that most American orchestra people choose the big horns for orchestral big pieces, as evidenced by the list of who played what in the finals for Utah. I have heard folks in Brit orchestras sound incredible on their 3 and 1 Eb's. And either you can play in tune or not no matter how many valves you have at your disposal. Chester hit it out of the park for years on his 4 valve Alexander. If you have a full time orchestral job obviously you try to fit with your Full Time section mates but if you just travel around from group to group and have some per service jobs with a van full of equipment to impress others with your vast knowledge of the rep I pity you. Equipment is a slippery slope and the manufactures bank on it. Find what you sound great on and Master it, and learn all of the music you can and trust only your ear and recordings of you in groups, not what some blowhard know it all tries to pitch. My 2 cents, Ed

[Yane]

Prokofiev 5, Ilya Muromets, Siegfried - Extended low register at high volumes. I would want a bigger horn were I to play it with a large orchestra. Not because the 4/4 couldn't make the sound, but it's more work on the smaller horn, and it would be exhausting. The larger horn could produce the sound with less effort, and I'd be a much happier person at the end of the concert.

I can corroborate Tim and Joe’s comments, having made my own transition within a community orchestra from Boosey Eb to King 1241 Bb. The surprising development was that once I got the Bb, my low register on the Eb improved; so the problem was in my head. That said, I concur that a bigger horn means less work, though I would say it is an exceptional player who can cleanly handle the excepts referenced above on a Eb or F. The flip side is the rep originally written for opheclyde or French tuba, often in a registers which will be much easier on a Eb or even a euphonium. Then again, how much prompting does one need to get another horn, especially if it can be written off?

[GC]

I've wondered what it is about the comp BBb Bessons that allow them to have horribly flattened right-side outer bows and still play very well. I've seen several examples of them damaged so badly that they're painful to look at that I would gladly take home to use.

[Mark E. Chachich]

Listen to some of the U.K. orchestras, that will give you an answer. Most of what I have heard (and seen on YouTube) they are playing E flat tubas and they sound great I wish that I could sound that good on any tuba. Also, my bass tuba for 40 years has been an E flat and it always served me well. Point, it is the musician that makes the tuba work.

best,
Mark

[brianf]

The great John Fletcher used an E flat in the London Symphony but also used a Holton 345 when a larger horn was required.

[iiipopes]

The great John Fletcher used an E flat in the London Symphony but also used a Holton 345 when a larger horn was required.

This. End of discussion.

[hup_d_dup]

Another consideration is the group itself. Most of us play in relatively small community orchestras. Eb will certainly do the job in a small orchestra.

Interestingly, a concert band seems to need to have at least some of its tubas in Bb, even though there are multiple tubas in the section.

Hup

[brianf]

This. End of discussion.

Nope, only the beginning.
Is there such a thing as one horn that is perfect for every situation?
Here's where the discussion begins.

[BBruce107]

In all honesty in the US I would at least have a 4/4 CC for most rep that is not specified for a bass tuba. As much as the sound of an Eb can carry it doesn't have the same quality of sound that a contrabass tuba has in an orchestra and it is noticeably different when listened to back to back. If you have the resources save up for a 4/4 CC for your studies and I think you would be much further ahead. Good luck getting into music school man!

[Donn]

Is there such a thing as one horn that is perfect for every situation?
Here's where the discussion begins.

And in the end it doesn't have an end. It's a discussion like chili recipes, for example - interesting (if you like to make chili), but not in any way ever conclusive. What kind of cook, or artist, would voluntarily subordinate his judgement to another's?

[hbcrandy]

I used my York Eb tuba as most players use their F tubas. With my Eb tuba, I have played Symphony Fantastique, Rite of Spring, Symphony in D Minor to name a few. I played CC tuba for Wagner, Bruckner, Mahler and the like.

[Rumblebuffin]

Hello,
Interesting topic & posts.
You requested some footage of an Eb being used on heavyweight literature-here’s a link.
No endorsements as to its quality-but it gives an idea...it can be a bit fiddly to start but it will work.. the second one needs to be listened from around the 50/51min mark..

http://v.youku.com/v_shid_XMjk0MTc5NzY0.htmlow/" target="_blank
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hjtV6R3zNxI" target="_blank

[Rumblebuffin]

Apologies: the first link takes you to the main page for some reason:
Put Prokoffiev Alexander Nevsky in the search field & it should work..

[2ba4t]

This really is a fascinating thread. I have learnt a lot. Thanks.

Using a really big mouthpiece makes the EEb sound a lot heavier. John Fletcher started using the 24AW in about 1968 and then the 19" bell and everyone ran for cover. Then he got the Holton and the earth shook.

As a Frankentubist I have recently taken my old Besson 983 and (cover your eyes) made a CC crook for it. I worked from the broader side of that pesky, far too short main tuning slide. This is quite wide bore tubing - and I salvaged stuff from old BBbs. I was told this cannot work as all the partials will be out of tune.

Well, I sucked it to see. It blows like a dream. Just like using a crook for an F to Eb, or CC to BBb, you simply pull the slides. I made an easily moved extension to the third valve, little comp slide (at the back) to help the low FF#, FF, and EE etc.

The logic behind this is that the EEb is really,as you say, a great all rounder, but, yes, the 'bread and butter notes' (as John called them) of low AAb, GG, FF and EE are tight. This evidently is not because you are adding masses of cylindrical valve tubing to conical. I believe that is a myth. It is the interference with the smoothness of the walls of the air column that makes instruments 'tight'. This can be from a leak allowing the higher room air pressure to interfere. Or it can be by physical unevennesses. My CC crook proves this. It is, after all, a long stretch of cylindrical tubing put into a conical bore. It does not have however any convoluted valve nodules and twists and turns, passages, bends and misshapes to meddle with the nodes and antinodes. I kept the two bends as wide as at all possible. The sound waves are not being compromised. I was truly surprised that it blows as freely as when in EEb. Now with the CC crook and a huge mouthpiece - I can really hit GG, FF, EE like, well, a CC tuba. If I knew how I would post a picture and a video - with ear plugs.

Yes, I fully agree that it does not sound like a 'huge, velvet cushion' or the sumptuous, organ-like 'felt not heard' effect of your beloved vast CCs. But it is a lot easier to carry around a loop of tubing and a huge mouthpiece - for the Russians and American composers etc.- than another tuba. And you can revert, in 20 seconds, to a little old Eb bass tuba for any F tuba or 19th century stuff or if you want more focussed, penetrative sound [even within one work].

Just a thought.

[J.c. Sherman]

I've put a bottom on several concerts with a large orchestras with chorus, and every size from that down to bassoon and tuba duo, and an Eb can do it all. The 3+1 Besson Ebs with the small bells have a singing quality with enough oomph to play anything... which is why I always brought it when I didn't know what to expect (recording sessions, etc.).

That said:

Music written for contrabass tuba sounds much more satisfying on the contras, and Band music - with a mix of the Eb and some monsters - work great with the monsters.

Some trombone sections just don't know how to adapt to the tone of the Eb - which is just as loud - and play... weird with it. Then, I throw up my hands and bring the 2000.

YMMV. But an Eb (a double tuba!) can be the perfect solution. It CAN do anything. Is it always perfect? Not always. But always capable.