Transposing bass clef Bb to treble Eb

[marking]

I've been asked to play tuba for our little community theatre's production of Chicago.

Long story short.... I been playing an Eb horn for a couple of years but can't easily read bass clef. My early lessons on trumpet are deeply ingrained, so open = C, 1-3 =D, 1-2 = E, etc.

The publishing company wanted $5 per page to transcribe for a 91 page score. That's well outside of the theatre's budget.

Some googling tells me I can transpose from bass Bb to treble Eb by ignoring the staff marking and adding 3 sharps. Seems doable, but what do I do when the music has 4 or more sharps?

Any advice appreciated

[Worth]

From someone who can relate....

4+3 = 7 so you get to the key of C# (F♯, C♯, G♯, D♯, A♯, E♯, B♯) and after that, all hell breaks loose. Once you pass that point of no return, 8 and more sharps means after that you have double sharps starting with F## , etc. etc. Not to mention dealing with augmenting accidentals on F,C,G a half step each. It's really a mind ****, but I understand your situation. I've tried to wrap my head around reading Eb tuba in BC "straight up" and I don't do it often enough, so it messes with my technique on CC reading BC. I know it's an unprofessional compromise, but I stick to reading my Eb in TC whether reading BC or using my Eb in Brass Band thankfully reading TC.

[MaryAnn]

In your situation I'd xerox my part and write in fingerings by figuring out what the pitches are. Over time you'll get used to how it works. And....if you can find a recording to play with, you'll find out if you are doing it right.
Or...if I'm thinking about this right, you could read bass clef with a CC tuba using your same fingerings.

[Ken Herrick]

I have not seen the part but, I doubt it would be all that long or complicated so some time spent using Musescore could be time well spent. It cost nothing to download. https://musescore.org/en" target="_blank

Carefully copy out the original then transpose it to the required clef and key. I think it would be pretty simple.

Musescore can be very handy for other projects. I copied all of the Kopprasch etudes then transposed them into all keys which gave a big technical studies book covering four octaves. Cheaper than buying a lot of high and low range studies books. This makes a great way to make thee change from 1 key tuba to another or getting used to reading different clefs.

[Donn]

Carefully copy out the original then transpose it to the required clef and key. I think it would be pretty simple.

Right. I've done this for weird arrangements. The more you will do of this kind of reading in the future, the more it may pay off to simply learn that skill. If it's a "one off", you may very well save time copying and arrive intact at the finish line, and that software is a useful skill too. Copying errors could mess you up pretty bad, though.

[Donn]

For a tuba player, for sure there's nothing like being able to read bass clef.

[marking]

Thanks for the replies.

Reading bass clef and learning Musescore are indeed skills for my bucket list. There many ways my enthusiasm and curiosity exceed my talents.

On the cover of the score there is a note saying, in short, feel free to write in the book. (The return address is a paper recycling facility) Ignoring the clef puts the note positions where I can read them. The E below the bass clef = C below the treble. I need to go though and change the keys and accidentals. No need to xerox or rewrite into Musescore.

I think I found the answer to my question of how to add 3 sharps when you've already got 4 or more. In a sax forum this very question was discussed pertaining to Bari sax players reading tuba parts. A poster said to just go around the circle of fifths and 5 sharps becomes 4 flats. So I stared at the circle of fifths for a while until I saw what they meant.

The use of all these "crutches" helps me hobble along in my new hobby. Occasionally, some new info starts to sink in. You all here in TubeNet are a valued resource. Thank You

[Ann Reid]

When I was a kid, there were Eb tubas and music for them and Bb Tubas and music for them, and I understood what Euphoniums (TC) and Bass Clarinets and bassoons played.

Now, having played euphonium (BC) for a few months, I have come to realize that I would do better using my learning time playing tuba. Feeling reasonably confident with Euphonium BC fingerings I know that if I am playing a BBb tuba, I will be using mostly fingerings that I’ve already learned while playing the euphonium.

I think I know that I’d have to learn a different set of fingerings to play an Eb tuba (at The interval of a 4th or a 5th??). Is there a C clef that would allow me to play an Eb part using the fingerings I already know?

This is my Achilles Heel, and I am overwhelmed by my own lack of ability with comprehending this.....

[Yane]

As for the “add 3 sharps” shortcut It will suck at first but will improve with practice. I faced a similar situation having started on trumpet ages ago, then moved to euphonium. I bought an Eb tuba which I had for a month or so, and was just getting used to when I got an Easter gig with a lots of sharp keys. Probably not as challenging as your show tunes but was daunting for me at the time. In retrospect it was good motivation to learn a new skill; this opportunity could be the same for you. Go ahead and hand transpose the worst sections as needed, the act of doing so will help your learning.

[MikeW]

I'm not clear what you mean by "transposing from bass Bb". My understanding of the three -sharps trick is that music written in any key on the concert pitch Bass staff can be played on an Eb instrument by adding three sharps to the key signature and reading it as if it was written on a treble staff.

Sharp keys very soon get tricky - sorry, can't help you there, they don't happen much in concert-band music.

[Donn]

Now, having played euphonium (BC) for a few months, I have come to realize that I would do better using my learning time playing tuba. Feeling reasonably confident with Euphonium BC fingerings I know that if I am playing a BBb tuba, I will be using mostly fingerings that I’ve already learned while playing the euphonium.

Sort of. I assume you've looked at tuba parts, so you know that both instruments are written at concert pitch and the tuba parts are an octave lower. About the easiest thing there is to learn.

I think I know that I’d have to learn a different set of fingerings to play an Eb tuba (at The interval of a 4th or a 5th??). Is there a C clef that would allow me to play an Eb part using the fingerings I already know?

Nope. Eb players benefit a little from the accidental resemblance to treble clef transposed, as for trumpet and baritone treble-clef. If you were coming from the latter, you would benefit a little from that, but you've been playing concert pitch euphonium, so your Eb fingerings would be right in between the euphonium and the octave lower BBb tuba.

Just to make this complicated enough to be fun, the English have a different system where everyone's reading transposed parts (except bass trombone.) That's the real "there were Eb tubas and music for them and Bb Tubas and music for them". In the US and elsewhere, the Eb and BBb tubas read the same parts, often literally with both parts written in on the same staff. In old march arrangements this part may be called "Eb bass" - because back then (late 19th century), that was all they had, but today that part is played mostly on BBb tubas.

[Radar]

Learning to read Bass clef definately would be helpful and isn't tremendously difficult to do. In regard to your question about adding sharps. Don't think of it as adding sharps think of it as moving around the circle of 5ths 3 keys. This will fix the confusion of what to do when you run out of sharps to add. It will also tell you what to do in flat keys. If you don't know the circle of 5ths already get a copy off the internet and memorize it, it comes in handy for so much.

[paulver]

Reading bass clef is an absolute "no brainer!!!" If you start at middle "C" and go up through the treble clef staff, you go through the musical alphabet forward for each line and space. Starting again at middle "C" and going down through the bass clef staff, you simply go through the alphabet backwards, for each line and space. One staff is merely a continuation of the other staff! Looking at the two different clefs as a grand staff for piano, it becomes incredible easy to remember.

[doddyhop]

I play Bari Sax as a second instrument.

How I see Bari Sax or Eflat Treble is that it looks almost like C Bass Clef except instead when concert pitch Aflat it looks like an A with a Natural sign and other wierd things.
The hard part is when i have to say it. If concert C, then Concert A. C-->A is 3 half steps down.

[hup_d_dup]

Reading bass clef is an absolute "no brainer!!!" If you start at middle "C" and go up through the treble clef staff, you go through the musical alphabet forward for each line and space. Starting again at middle "C" and going down through the bass clef staff, you simply go through the alphabet backwards, for each line and space. One staff is merely a continuation of the other staff! Looking at the two different clefs as a grand staff for piano, it becomes incredible easy to remember.

This will work if you happen to be playing a C tuba. In the OP Marking said he's playing an Eb, so this system is of no use to him.

Hup

[paulver]

My post was only referring to the post(s) regarding "learning to read" bass clef........... not transposing. Transposing is, quite obviously, a whole 'nother ball game.

You have to know "what" you're looking at before you can know "what" to transpose to!!!

[Radar]

Reading bass clef is an absolute "no brainer!!!" If you start at middle "C" and go up through the treble clef staff, you go through the musical alphabet forward for each line and space. Starting again at middle "C" and going down through the bass clef staff, you simply go through the alphabet backwards, for each line and space. One staff is merely a continuation of the other staff! Looking at the two different clefs as a grand staff for piano, it becomes incredible easy to remember.

This will work if you happen to be playing a C tuba. In the OP Marking said he's playing an Eb, so this system is of no use to him.

Hup

It will work because he is reading it as Treble clef with Trumpet fingerings.

[hup_d_dup]

Reading bass clef is an absolute "no brainer!!!" If you start at middle "C" and go up through the treble clef staff, you go through the musical alphabet forward for each line and space. Starting again at middle "C" and going down through the bass clef staff, you simply go through the alphabet backwards, for each line and space. One staff is merely a continuation of the other staff! Looking at the two different clefs as a grand staff for piano, it becomes incredible easy to remember.

This will work if you happen to be playing a C tuba. In the OP Marking said he's playing an Eb, so this system is of no use to him.

Hup

It will work because he is reading it as Treble clef with Trumpet fingerings.

There is nothing in paulver's quote about reading treble clef with trumpet fingerings. That was mentioned elsewhere.

Hup

[drbekken]

Add 3 sharps, read it in Treble Clef. You just learn to play in more sharps and some double sharps. There is no shortcut to that.

Word.

[paulver]

Wow!! I'm really surprised at the differing opinions as to a solution to a simple problem.

Why not refer to "Occam's Razor" to provide a satisfactory course of action for the original poster. A loose translation is..... "Given all of the alternatives, the simplest solution is usually the best!!" Of course..... that translation will probably spark more controversy!!!

My post was merely to show an easy way to learn to read bass clef. From that point, one needs to decide the best (easiest) way for him/her to get the rest of the job done.