Can't they just learn to play?

bigboymusic · Post by **bigboymusic** » Tue May 11, 2004 4:59 pm

I'm just venting a bit. I have a couple HS students that are in the hunt for Schools and both these girls have encountered the same thing. Both own very good BB flat tubas and both can play very well on them. There are a couple more 'well known schools' that have accepted them, but with the now all to common asterik by the acceptance. The students must sell the BB and 'join the 21st Century' by purchasing CC's.

I'm only 35 so I don't think I'm an old crumudgen yet, but does anyone else just get po'ed about this. I have a studio here at Missouri Western, and the best players are not always the ones with the CC's, or the Hirsbrunners. I understand that other studios 'have standards' and can require whatever thay want. But i truly believe that some of these students, especially the ones that play BBflat well and are planning on being band directors most likely, should be judged on performance, not by style points...

I play CC, BBflat, and eflat...My students play what they sound best on...

Did I miss something or am i really just starting to get old and bull headed?

Paul 'just play the damn horn ' Weissenborn

TubaRay · Post by **TubaRay** » Tue May 11, 2004 6:32 pm

I agree with the other posts on this subject, especially Paul's. When I went to college as a music ed. major, I made the switch to CC. I believe it has turned out well for me, even though I had no real clue about things at the time. That being said, I don't believe CC tubas are inherently superior to BBb tubas. I would disagree that playing CC tubas is a new fad. I COULD make some kind of claim to being a curmudgeon(or whatever the heck you might want to call me). Anyway, I am old enough to be called "not young," if you get my drift. Serious players have been switching to CC tubas for a long time now. I don't see that as a requirement.

To put all this in a shorter form: I believe one should play on whatever equipment best makes it possible to produce what you hear in your head.

dwaskew · Post by **dwaskew** » Wed May 12, 2004 8:25 am

Since Matt brought it up....
I realize I may be in the company of a very few collegiate teachers, but I really don't care what key instrument a student is playing on. I simply care that they are playing an instrument that will not impede their progress--some BBb's they come to school with are not worth shooting.
If that's the case, then I will probably switch them to CC, because that what our school has that are "decent". However, if they come to school with something that plays decently in tune, and isn't falling apart mechanically, they stay on that. If they come with nothing, then, again, I'll switch them to CC because that's what we have.
If they decide to purchase (which nearly all do) then they can have a choice--BBb or CC, and go with what fits them best ergonimically, etc.

That's my take on this topic.....for whatever it's worth.....

D. AsKew

smurphius · Post by **smurphius** » Wed May 12, 2004 8:57 am

about a year ago, i made that collegiate switch from BBb to CC. in my case, it was because i didn't (and still don't quite yet) have my own horn, and the school had a good CC. however, if i had a nice BBb in my possession, i probably would have never made the switch, although i have a feeling i would have been pressured into it some. if the musicians is indeed a musician, they should be able to make relatively any instrument sound like it should, aand definately sound however they want it to. it seems just as feesible for me to play in an orchestra on a BBb as with a CC. strings are so out of tune anyhow (or at least at my school) that it doesn't matter. come to think of it, professional trumpets are in Bb too! seems only fitting to have BBb tubas in a band with them, right?

all this talk makes me miss those old BBb tubas i've been playing all my life. haha. this is such a great topic though.

ThomasDodd · Post by **ThomasDodd** » Wed May 12, 2004 4:49 pm

bigboymusic wrote:I have a couple HS students that are in the hunt for Schools and both these girls have encountered the same thing. Both own very good BB flat tubas and both can play very well on them. There are a couple more 'well known schools' that have accepted them, but with the now all to common asterik by the acceptance. The students must sell the BB and 'join the 21st Century' by purchasing CC's.

You've got to be kidding. The local university only have BBb horns for students, and very few onw their own. I'm talking music majors (performance or edutcation) here. No one is required to buy a horn. Especially not something as expensive as a tuba. Hell most euphonium playes use school horns too, and possibly the horns.

If a school told me I had to buy a horn that I didn't want or need, I'd look to another school.

-Thomas

Leland · Post by **Leland** » Wed May 12, 2004 6:29 pm

Some schools recommend their students to have certain kinds of computers, although they'll accept anything as long as it can either run certain programs or deal in certain file types.

As long as they can play the music, why should it matter what key a horn is in?

ThomasP · Post by **ThomasP** » Sat May 15, 2004 9:50 pm

Also attending school in Mississippi, I would like to share another view of my studio's practice in the state. 7 players have their own tuba, out of 12 tubas, and all of the euphoniums have their own horn. I bought my horn because I wanted a better horn, and I plan to make a living playing the tuba. And only three other players in the studio share the same career plan I do. The other three players just found a good deal on a decent used horn. Two people in the studio play BBb, one of them owns his own. I can say that I do not like the idea of people buying tubas before college. Tubas are an investment, and the cheapest tubas are still as expensive as good trumpets. The two people you speak of, I think, would have been better off not purchasing any kind of tuba until they decided how serious they were about playing. The drop out rate for music majors is very high, I always hate seeing an incoming freshman come in with a new horn, and then decide that they wasted their money on it because they don't want to be in music anymore. As for switching to CC if they already have a BBb, if they are serious about tuba, they will more than likely play a CC tuba soon enough and decide that they like it more. The only advantage of a BBb tuba I know of, and I realize I will cause an uproar, is the fact that you can get more valves and more features (as far as tubas are concerned) for a better price.

Paul S · Post by **Paul S** » Sun May 16, 2004 5:25 pm

The film professor I assisted when I was working on my MFA had a favorite quote for students who felt that their creativity was hampered by using less than the best equipment in the arsenal. I think his point applies nicely to this discussion as well.

A hammer is a hunk of wood & metal until the craftsman picks it up. If a Panavision camera were given to a monkey and a duct taped together super 8 were provided to Steven Spielberg.. Which would you bet your life on producing the better film?

Substitute your favorite tuba master for Spielberg, BBb for super 8, and cc for Panavision and it applies perfectly.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Mon May 17, 2004 5:31 pm

ThomasP wrote:The only advantage of a BBb tuba I know of, and I realize I will cause an uproar, is the fact that you can get more valves and more features (as far as tubas are concerned) for a better price.

I can't think of any reason why that would cause an uproar. The reason you state is good enough to drive the choice for most hobbyists who learned to play on BBb.

And as much as I'm happy to be playing (and paying for) BBb tubas instead of CC, I can't think of any other advantage they have except that they keep me from having to learn a new fingering system. And that bit of laziness is not acceptable for aspiring pros.

As to students buying their own horns, if they pay for them themselves, I see no harm in buying them. Most will find a way to play music even if not professionally, and they won't regret having a good instrument. And even if they do leave tuba playing completely, a wise purchase will sell for nearly as much as was paid.

Rick "who can't see how good tools hamper anybody including students" Denney

Kevin Miller · Post by **Kevin Miller** » Tue May 18, 2004 6:07 pm

Music Ed majors should be just fine remaining on BBb. A performance major should get a CC. Simple enough

runelk · Post by **runelk** » Tue May 18, 2004 8:32 pm

I think they should be more interested in what instrument the student sounds the best on. Whether it be BB or CC. Face it, only a very small percent of the tuba majors go on to the professional level. If the student is one of those and serious about playing tuba for a living then, they might think about possible change.
I got into college playing a BBb, got into grad school playing BBb. Won the solo competion AND orchestra competion at a tuba conference playing a BBb. Won a small symphony audition playing BBb. Was a finalist in the Washington DC bands of the Air Force, Navy, The Army Field Band playing a BBb. Won a regional Air Force Band audition playing a BBb. Didn't change over to CC after 2 years into the service. The only reason I did, was that there was a brand new Hirsbrunner sitting in band supply not being played. Plus I wanted a challenge. Been playing both BBb and CC ever since.

My $.02 worth
Albert Islas, SMSgt
Tubist, United States Air Force Band
Washington, DC

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Tue May 18, 2004 9:00 pm

I know a fellow who attributes the awards he garnered during high school to the fact that his well-to-do section mates were struggling to learn their shiny new CC's, while he was stuck making the most of things with the school's old 25J.

Gorilla Tuba · Post by **Gorilla Tuba** » Tue May 18, 2004 10:11 pm

The myth that CC is automatically superior to BBbs is becoming less common. I think there may have been a time when most CC tubas were better than most BBs, but that was then. We are now in an era of using multiple tubas. When you used only one tuba for everything, a 4/4 CC made a lot of sense.

Although I think BBb is a valid choice for many people, I still think it would be hard to go wrong with a good 4/4 CC as a first tuba purchase.

The studio that I am now teaching in has a long tradition of not purchasing their own instruments (yet blaming the horn for their problems!). Gladly, nearly all are making plans to buy horns over the summer or in the fall. Only one is seriously considering a CC. For the rest, who are music ed majors, a BBb really will suit their needs pretty well.

Your students who play BBb would be welcomed in my studio.

Rick Denney · Post by **Rick Denney** » Thu May 20, 2004 2:22 am

wbryan6 wrote: But given the chance to buy a decent BBb or CC I would pick the CC. Perhaps my biast comes from the ease provided by the miss 2 feet of tubing. Whatever the reason, I have found a personal preference in CC

More likely your bias comes from the fact that your CC is a better tuba than your BBb. The two feet of tubing does make a difference, but I'd bet that effect is a lot smaller than those resulting from other differences.

I agree that there are fewer bad CC's than bad BBb's in the general scheme of things, though bad examples of both certainly do exist. Many instruments, however, did better in BBb than CC. So a person with a difference pair of instruments could arrive at the opposite conclusion you did.

As for me, I'm blessed with great BBb tubas that cost far less than the same instruments would have cost in CC.

Rick "wary of extrapolation" Denney

mckay · Post by **mckay** » Sat May 22, 2004 1:03 pm

I can't figure out why so many tuba players are hung up on what key their instrument
plays in. Trumpet players have no qualms about using a C trumpet in orchestra, a Bb trumpet
for band work, and maybe an Eb/D trumpet for the high stuff. Why should tuba be any
different? Play whatever works best for you, given the music you're playing.

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Sun May 23, 2004 9:14 am

mckay wrote:I can't figure out why so many tuba players are hung up on what key their instrument
plays in. Trumpet players have no qualms about using a C trumpet in orchestra, a Bb trumpet
for band work, and maybe an Eb/D trumpet for the high stuff. Why should tuba be any
different? Play whatever works best for you, given the music you're playing.

When trumpet players on horns in different keys do they change fingerings, or is their music transposed for the instrument they are using?

I do have 6 tubas, 4 of which I use regularly depending on the situation, but I have yet to find a quad tuba case that I can bring along to rehearsal, go figure.

Leland · Post by **Leland** » Sun May 23, 2004 9:52 am

Lew wrote:...but I have yet to find a quad tuba case that I can bring along to rehearsal, go figure.

There is one -- it's called "U-Haul". You just can't put it between the seats in the audience.

Besides, another reason why tubists don't have so many instruments is because they all sound pretty darn good already!

ThomasDodd · Post by **ThomasDodd** » Mon May 24, 2004 11:02 am

TDH wrote:Trumpet players have no qualms about buying 3, 4, 6, 10, however-many different horns to do their thing.

Try carying aroung several tubas some time. Carrying one is bad enough, hence cases with wheels and pull handles. Neve seen that on a trumpet case.

In any case, if you're going to drop for a new tuba, the CC's out there are generally much better-designed, and better-built horns than the BBb's. I know there are some kickin' BBb's out there, and some suckin' CC's, but if you're a college prof and giving out advice on how student and mom and dad are going to blow 4- or 5-digits worth of disposable income, you recommend CC, it's a no-brainer.

Recommending a horn is not the same as requiring it. If someone already has a horn they sound good on, the brand or key shouldn't matter to a prof.

What if you showed up with a C trumpet that you spent $5-10k on a year or two back, and they told you you must go buy a $5k Bb horn instead? How many college freshmen have $5k lying around for another horn? I had enough trouble with books and housing.

Leland · Post by **Leland** » Mon May 24, 2004 6:19 pm

Playing on a BBb had nothing to do with my nerves getting the best of me and my tone becoming as thin & wobbly as a Cirque de Soleil tightrope during the Holst in the Marine Band audition.

Everything else sounded swell, but the fact that I sucked

on that one excerpt was entirely separate from the key of the horn.

ThomasDodd · Post by **ThomasDodd** » Tue May 25, 2004 9:30 am

Leland wrote:during the Holst in the Marine Band audition.
Everything else sounded swell, but the fact that I sucked ;) on that one excerpt was entirely separate from the key of the horn.

That's OK. I think you ended up with a better group anyway.
Providence? Devine intervention?

-Thomas

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