Yamaha 67C4 Mouthpiece vs Helleberg 7B/120S

[tbonesullivan]

I'm continuing my tuba learning journey, and I definitely am able to get notes to center more rapidly, as I've learned to stop trying to play the thing like a trombone or euphonium.

I currently have two of the standard mouthpieces you see around, a Conn Helleberg 120S and a 7B. I find playing with the 7B to be easier in just about every way. However when using the 120S I sound much more "tuba" like. So I'm looking for some possible alternatives to these. Pulling up old info on the Yamaha YBB-631, it came stock with a Yamaha BB-67C4 mouthpiece.

Measurement wise, it looks to be somewhere in between the Hellebergs, with a rim width half way between the two. Throat is a bit smaller than the 7B, but not as tight as the 120S.

One thing I can't find much info on however is the shape of the mouthpiece. The Helleberg mpcs are very funnel shaped, while Bach type mouthpieces have more of the standard "Cup" design. Does anyone know what the interior shape on the 67C4 is like? Anyone have any other recommendations from the Yamaha offerings?

[toobagrowl]

One thing I can't find much info on however is the shape of the mouthpiece. The Helleberg mpcs are very funnel shaped, while Bach type mouthpieces have more of the standard "Cup" design. Does anyone know what the interior shape on the 67C4 is like? Anyone have any other recommendations from the Yamaha offerings?

The interior shape of the Yamaha 67C4 is a medium-ish bowl. It is a good all-around type mpc, much like the Bach 18, but a little shallower and with a little bit smaller throat/backbore than the Bach 18.
It is one of my regular/go-to mpcs for quintet use

[IOS]

I went through this precise process while back. I used the 67C4 for quite a while, used the 7C for a while but eventually found the Wick 3L to be exactly what I was looking for (i.e., it is consistent with my aural concept of what I wanted to sound like). As you evaluate various mouthpieces, give the Wick a try.

[tbonesullivan]

The interior shape of the Yamaha 67C4 is a medium-ish bowl. It is a good all-around type mpc, much like the Bach 18, but a little shallower and with a little bit smaller throat/backbore than the Bach 18.
It is one of my regular/go-to mpcs for quintet use

Definitely sounds like one I would want to take a try with! With trombone and bass trombone, cup mouthpieces have worked better for me than funnels. I just feel it's a better sound and feel.

I went through this precise process while back. I used the 67C4 for quite a while, used the 7C for a while but eventually found the Wick 3L to be exactly what I was looking for (i.e., it is consistent with my aural concept of what I wanted to sound like). As you evaluate various mouthpieces, give the Wick a try.

I will think about the wick, though my biggest issue with them is that sharp inner rim. I never got along with them on trombone for that reason. I know some people love them, but I don't.

[timayer]

Opening caveat - I've never been a trombone or euphonium player. I played trumpet in 5th grade, switched to tuba the next year, and never looked back. SO. I don't really know what it's like going from a smaller mouthpiece instrument to tuba.

I played large mouthpieces for a long time. Because Real Tuba Players play big equipment. And I was a Real Tuba Player.

I then discovered the Mike Finn H, which has a much smaller rim diameter than anything I'd played, but it is also very much makes a Tuba Sound. I have adored playing on it for several years now. So. I can recommend that.

Recently I started playing around on a Cooley Helleberg, which I'm loving too. It's even smaller than the MF-H. I'm not as good in the low register with it as I am with the MF-H, but that's also likely simply because I haven't done it as much. It really does allow for a great sound in the mid register and high register, though.

So based on your description, I'd recommend a Cooley Helleberg IF YOU CAN FIND ONE. I think it is based on a 7B, so you'd likely enjoy it.* I don't think they're made anymore.** Otherwise, I recommend the MF-H to anyone who will listen.***


*Someone check me on that?
**This too....
***This I can verify myself.

[Donn]

The interior shape of the Yamaha 67C4 is a medium-ish bowl. It is a good all-around type mpc, much like the Bach 18, but a little shallower and with a little bit smaller throat/backbore than the Bach 18.

The "C4" in "67C4" refers to Miraphone C4, doesn't it? Medium to shallow bowl, small throat. Werden's mouthpiece chart gives the 67C4 a larger throat and slightly smaller inside diameter than the C4 [/TU23], and I suppose there's no reason the cup would be the same either.

The round vs. conical profile distinction has for me a historical context. A century ago, I think there were a lot more conical mouthpieces. By a half century, trombone mouthpieces in the US had gone rounder - but tuba family is still not entirely sold on that (and [French] horn players certainly never will be.) Probably really depends on your face, and on your taste in sounds. Since the many differences between trombone and tuba are arguably not accidental, there probably are reasons why their mouthpieces might be different, too.

[tbonesullivan]

Coming from the bass trombone world partly, I'm used to the "bigger is better" mentality that overtook the community about 15-20 years ago. Giant toilet bowl mouthpieces with very thin rims and walls, as big as you could fit in the blank. Many had their leadpipes pulled, and played without out, seeking the ultimate fully open instrumental POWER. However, things like sound quality went right out the window, in favor of louder, bigger, lower. Then things swung back normalcy, with many realizing that maybe the Bach 1 1/2 G actually WAS a good bass trombone mouthpiece.

Sure the throat wasn't as open, and it wasn't as wide, but it produced a good bass trombone sound. I play on one, though I have a Hammond 85MD for times they want something a bit bigger down below the staff.

So, I guess I'm looking for more of an "average" mouthpiece, and the 67C4 does sound nice, and they aren't super expensive. And also, I'm one that feels that the mouthpiece should fit the player and the horn. If it's the mouthpiece that came with it stock, it might work better than the 7B or 120S.

[toobagrowl]

The interior shape of the Yamaha 67C4 is a medium-ish bowl. It is a good all-around type mpc, much like the Bach 18, but a little shallower and with a little bit smaller throat/backbore than the Bach 18.
It is one of my regular/go-to mpcs for quintet use

Definitely sounds like one I would want to take a try with! With trombone and bass trombone, cup mouthpieces have worked better for me than funnels. I just feel it's a better sound and feel.

Totally agree about bowl/cup vs. funnel mpcs. Bowl mpcs just sound and feel better for me

The "C4" in "67C4" refers to Miraphone C4, doesn't it? Medium to shallow bowl, small throat. Werden's mouthpiece chart gives the 67C4 a larger throat and slightly smaller inside diameter than the C4 [/TU23], and I suppose there's no reason the cup would be the same either.

Well we all know mpcs have variations in them, even with 'copies', which are sometimes not copies at all. I own the Schilke 69C4, Yamaha 67C4, a couple of Bach 18 copies (Faxx 18, CKB 18) and many other mpcs. I will just tell you that the Yamaha 67C4 is closer to the Bach 18 than it is the Schilke 69C4. The Schilke 69C4 has a wider diameter cup opening, is shallower, has a smaller throat/backbore (mine is drilled out larger) and a wider rim than both the Yamaha 67C4 and Bach 18.
I stated earlier that the Yamaha 67C4 was shallower than the Bach 18. But I gave a good look at both my 67C4 and Faxx 18, and they are about the same cup depth. The 18 just has a slightly more rounded/'open' bottom of the cup right at the throat than the 67C4, so it makes the 67C4 feel a little shallower in comparison. The 67C4 is slightly smaller in cup volume towards the bottom. But I'd say both the 18 and 67C4 are more alike than not. The Schilke 69C4, though, is a different animal.

[happyroman]

Opening caveat - I've never been a trombone or euphonium player. I played trumpet in 5th grade, switched to tuba the next year, and never looked back. SO. I don't really know what it's like going from a smaller mouthpiece instrument to tuba.

I played large mouthpieces for a long time. Because Real Tuba Players play big equipment. And I was a Real Tuba Player.

I then discovered the Mike Finn H, which has a much smaller rim diameter than anything I'd played, but it is also very much makes a Tuba Sound. I have adored playing on it for several years now. So. I can recommend that.

Recently I started playing around on a Cooley Helleberg, which I'm loving too. It's even smaller than the MF-H. I'm not as good in the low register with it as I am with the MF-H, but that's also likely simply because I haven't done it as much. It really does allow for a great sound in the mid register and high register, though.

So based on your description, I'd recommend a Cooley Helleberg IF YOU CAN FIND ONE. I think it is based on a 7B, so you'd likely enjoy it.* I don't think they're made anymore.** Otherwise, I recommend the MF-H to anyone who will listen.***


*Someone check me on that?
**This too....
***This I can verify myself.

Here is a little more info on the Cooley Helleberg. The only real comparison with the 7B, to me, is that they both have a smaller inner diameter than the 120S. My recollection is that Floyd helped develop the Cooley Helleberg at about the same time he was working with Walter Nirschl to create the Nirschl York tuba. As stated above, they are really good mouthpieces if you can find them. They seem to be listed here for sale every so often, so keep your eyes peeled.

Here is a link to another thread in the forum that discusses the Cooley.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=62335" target="_blank" target="_blank

I also have to agree with timayer about the Mike Finn H. It is his version of the 1920s vintage Conn Helleberg, but made with a more heavy wall blank. This is a VERY resonant mouthpiece, and is what I use with my Rudy Meinl 5/4 most of the time.

Warburton makes four mouthpieces in the TG (The Grail, as on Holy Grail) line. The TG1 is their version of the mouthpiece being sold as the Arnold Jacobs mouthpiece. The TG4 is the mouthpiece they developed from one of Arnold Jacobs stage mouthpieces that they were loaned by Dave Fedderly. It is my understanding that this was the vintage Conn Helleberg mouthpiece that Mr. Jacobs used most of the time. The AJ mouthpiece is modeled after a vintage Conn Helleberg mouthpiece that Mr. Jacobs had Schilke carve out the cup somewhat, making it wider and deeper with a more open throat. The intent was to use it for the large contrabass tuba works. Because Schilke took a standard Conn Helleberg and removed some of the inside of the cup, the rim is a little narrower than on the standard Conn Helleberg mouthpieces.

[tbonesullivan]

Finally got the Yamaha 67C4. Playing a bit on it, seems to be a nice happy medium between the two Helleberg pieces. As I actually gain more tuba skills, hopefully I'll be able to make a more effective comparison of the 67C4 vs the Helleberg 120S on the Ybb-631. I will say that both definitely sound better than the 7B, which I think is just more of an Eb or F tuba mouthpiece, for me anyway.

[groth]

The Schilke 69C4, though, is a different animal.

Yes, it is. It's my favorite of all time I think. I would skip over the Yamaha's and Bach's and go right to the Schilke unless you like less response and deeper less clear notes.