New Conn 1 mouthpiece

[Donn]

Not too long ago, I finally acquired a fairly nicely preserved Conn 1 mouthpiece from a Tubenet colleague, and it was a "where have you been all my life!" experience. I like just about everything I've ever tried in that Conn Precision line from the middle of the previous century, but the Conn 1 is really something else.

I am pleased to introduce an old and wonderful mouthpiece model, the Conn 1, in a new copy from James R. New. I am mostly to blame for this. Mr. New's name comes up here on Tubenet now and then, remembered as the mouthpiece maker at Kanstul and copier of the Conn Geib. He's more of a trumpet mouthpiece maker, and I don't know if you're going to see the Conn 1 or other tuba mouthpieces on his web site, but he was willing to make this small batch of mouthpieces for me and I assume he'd be willing to make more. He handled this job quickly and efficiently, and by my expectations quite economically.

New and old.

[bort]

And I thought I was the only one who harassed hi for a Tuba mouthpiece. Looks awesome! What are the specs? (Jim is the man!)

[Donn]

What's in the Conn 1. The above compares it to the Geib, and a Helleberg. I don't know what Helleberg exactly - apparently not the modern 120S, which has a wider cup and flatter rim. The Conn 1 isn't a real wide cup diameter, the closest mouthpiece I have to the Conn 1 is a Schilke 67, which lists at 32.41; the best Conn 1 measurement I get from Tubenet experts is 32.7.

The throat is 9mm, exceptionally wide. The rim is rather rounded, on both sides.

I hope the image is clear enough. It's all Mr. New's data, with a little shading to bring out the Conn1 outline.

[Donn]

What do you get from this exotically deep throated mouthpiece?

The big surprise is, how little difference it makes. You can't be sure anyone will notice.

You'll notice, though. To me, it's best described as more present. It might be the big throat, as much as anything else, but of course like any mouthpiece the parameters either work together or they don't. The upper middle range is affected as much as the low range. There's just a little more joy, and when you go back to a similar but conventional mouthpiece (like the Schilke 67, which has an 8.33mm throat, helleberg contour and a moderately rounded rim), you don't lose a lot but it's just a little thin.

Obviously, I'm in love with this mouthpiece, wouldn't have done this if I wasn't. The copy of course plays just like the original, but is totally slick. Heavenly. Everyone has a different thing, like someone mentioned today in another thread, mouthpieces are like shoes, the one that fits you is the one you should wear. (I'm 13B.)

[bisontuba]

Nice

[Donn]

And I thought I was the only one who harassed him for a Tuba mouthpiece. Looks awesome!

Yes, if I remember right you posted a photo of your Geib. I was humbled, trying to get one of this very shiny object with a legible engraving. It should read
James
R. New
C-1

[Donn]

Exterior dimensions are not strikingly different from other mouthpieces in my heap. The original is wider than mouthpieces with a narrow rim, but to casual inspection, same as Miraphone C4, King 26. Same length as anything else. The copy is the same exterior.

[bort]

Congrats, Donn! The New Geib was also a great mouthpiece... the person who bought it (a fine repairman and tuba player, who rarely posts here) loves it, and said it unexpectedly became his new goto mouthpiece... which said a lot to me.

I think if Jim made more, they would sell... but I realize for time and materials, it's easier to just pop out a bunch of the little trumpet things instead.

Either way Jim's work is great, and he's a real nice guy. I wish him the best success with his new shop in Utah!

[Donn]

The New Geib was also a great mouthpiece.

I was surprised by the contours in the diagram - some verbal description I'd seen made me expect sloping sides and a rounded bottom, but it's rather the opposite, sides approach parallel and the bottom slopes, which I think is a much more common profile.

The ideal would be a full Conn Precision tuba line - the 1, 2 and 3 at least and the Geib, in large shank, maybe 3 and 4 in small shank (rumors only on Conn 4, never seen one.) And maybe, for bass trombonists with 72H and other such, the Conn 3B with original Brown & Sharpe taper shank.

No opinion on Precision (mid '30s through '50s) vs. Improved Precision (late '50s to late '60s) - just guessing they're identical in every important way, and the step on the shank exterior is probably an esthetic improvement. The 3 is next in line, because it's almost as rare and it is a nice enough bass tuba mouthpiece, with a more conical profile than you'd be able to get in any common production model, but I don't expect it will happen unless there's some evidence of actual demand.

[proam]

How does a Conn 1 compare with the Conn 2? For example, is the 1 a deeper/wider/etc version of the 2? Or are they just completly different mouthpieces?

[TUbajohn20J]

How does a Conn 1 compare with the Conn 2? For example, is the 1 a deeper/wider/etc version of the 2? Or are they just completly different mouthpieces?

They are a little different shaped. The Conn 1 is much deeper and and wider with a huge throat, and probably contoured a little differently on the inside. It's a huge contrabass tuba mouthpiece. The Conn 2 is much narrower and shallower, more like a bass tuba mouthpiece. Although they used to come with the 2XK/2XJ line 6/4 horns, which is why I use one on my 6/4 horns regularly. Conn 2's work well for everything. Conn 1 is massive!

[Donn]

How does a Conn 1 compare with the Conn 2?

In the diagram above, if you can make out the blue "Helleberg" contour, I think that's the best answer to your question - the Conn 2 is one of Conn's Helleberg models, supposedly very much like an earlier model simply labeled as such, and it's very much like current 7B in its cup profile (though to me the 7B sounds brighter.)

So the Conn 2 is a conventional mouthpiece that bottoms out where they all bottom out, where the Conn 1 goes considerably deeper. That also makes for larger volume of course. I checked that against a Conn 120S copy, Faxx fhb, pouring a volume of quinoa from one to the other, and the Conn 1 is indeed slightly larger - but not much. (For those who might be concerned about possible regional variation, I repeated the experiment with same results, using bona fide hominy grits.)

The Conn 1 manages to be so deep, without radically larger volume, by virtue of its conical profile and moderate opening. Using the Laskey system where the number is the decimal fraction of the cup diameter in inches, it would be more of a 28 than a 30.

In terms of how it plays ... my Conn 2 is out on loan, so I can't really compare, but anyway it's a yes and no. There's a family resemblance, but the depth and the rounded rim make a difference. They're both in the funnel mouthpiece tradition, tonally, the Conn 1 just carries it farther.

[Donn]

I have a Conn 4 that Ivan Giddings is going to duplicate for me in stainless steel

I guess we can assume it must be an OK mouthpiece. Hope you will keep us posted.

[bort]

Related question -- am I remembering correctly, that there was an old Schilke 67 that had the same outer shape as the old Conn 2 (and your Conn 1 shown here)? I seem to remember Kevin Ladd playing a mouthpiece shaped like this, and that he told me it was a Schilke 67. But now I'm not sure and wondering if it was a Conn 2. That was about 10 years ago, so I can't quite remember!

[Donn]

Yes, my Schilke 67 has that outer shape. Strictly speaking, like the Conn Improved Precision, which has a slight step at the top of the shank, which I think more esthetically than anything sets off the Morse taper of the shank from the curved taper of the body. Another mouthpiece recently acquired via Tubenet, very pleased with it.

I think people have wondered if it's just the Improved Precision Conn 2 with a different name engraved on it, but my take is, it's a little bigger diameter. So it would be interesting to know how that happened, but I guess we'll never know.

[bort]

Thanks Donn. That's all very cool.

[Donn]

He's more of a trumpet mouthpiece maker, and I don't know if you're going to see the Conn 1 or other tuba mouthpieces on his web site, but he was willing to make this small batch of mouthpieces for me and I assume he'd be willing to make more.

I put up an ad yesterday for those extra mouthpieces, and they were gone within hours. He confirms that he's into making tuba mouthpieces where there's a demand, so if anyone else is interested in having shiny new James R. New C-1, write to him and demand. I expect price will be in line with what you'd expect from a small shop, e.g. Marcinkiewicz.

He mentioned by the way that he has a Geib on the shelf, euro shank, left over from a previous production run.

http://www.james-r-new.com

[Donn]

New's diagram from the previous page will help visualize:


I think for as much as you're going to be able to make out from that picture, we can say the Conn2 is represented by "Helleberg" (the blue line.) The rim inside diameter is a little smaller, and the cup is shallower.

The diagram doesn't show rim shape very well. Conn 1 is pretty round, Conn 2 is moderately flat. (I believe called "cushion" shape for whatever reason. I'm looking at an "Improved Precision" model here.)

For dimensions I'm going with cjk's post from 2008 -
Conn2 1.244 inches rim interior and .328 throat
Conn1 1.287 inches rim interior and .355 throat

They're the same length. The Conn1 rim exterior is larger, though by less than 1/10 of an inch.

[tbonesullivan]

Oh sweet! I know that James New has been making a lot of different Trombone and Tuba mouthpieces for Ferguson music. Glad to see he also works with smaller orders.

[Donn]

He did, anyway, on that occasion. I think someone else mentioned another small project around about the same time, that he turned down. Are players are lining up to get these Geibs and C-1s etc., in quantities that make it an attractive business proposition? I wouldn't assume so.