What is the altissimo shift?

[2ba4t]

I was browsing the wonderful world of tubenet and met this term relating to a 'trick' to play altissimo 'an octave higher' was suggested.

This altissimo stuff is old news but I had never heard of this. Associated with Arnold Jacobs??

We should all really play a tiny euphonium which can go down to BBB and play all the high stuff easily. Or did the French already think of that 200 years ago?

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[Yes, a real, perfect 1936 King 4v. H.N.White 178666. Rare as the best steak. I found it 54 years ago used as an art class model because it had had a great smash across the valve slides lower down. A true craftman repaired it. It is the best instrument I have ever touched. No euphonium today even gets near it for sweetness and flexibility - even the old Booseys. Someone should stencil it and also expand it pro rata as an F, Eb,CC and BBb tuba. Yes, I always was in a minority of one.

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[David Zerkel]

command+shift+5 (Sorry- couldn't help myself)

In reality, when I need to play very high, I think of tucking my bottom lip back. How far depends on how high I'm playing.

[2ba4t]

Any one interested see http://www.hnwhite.com/Euphoniums%20and%20Baritones.htm" target="_blank model 1173

[bone-a-phone]

I bought one of these last year on eBay that was listed as a compensating euphonium. I sent it back because it was not described properly, and the intonation was super funky. I did like the sound and the way it felt, but couldn't deal with the intonation.

[roweenie]

To avoid the hazards of "altissimo shift", NEVER let a male passenger ride on the console.

[2ba4t]

re King Baritone - Perhaps it was in high-pitch as mine was.

[Worth]

Isn't the altissimo shift where Michael Jackson used to grab his crotch and go wooooo hooooooooooooooooooooo?

[Three Valves]

I was in a commercial airliner that dropped from 30k ft to about 25k ft in just moments.

You don’t want to do that.

[2ba4t]

You know, I might suspect y'all are not taking this really seriously. I saw it on the most respectable and loved tuba site in the world.

[2ba4t]

See tubenet [look up the site elsewhere]

Re: Embouchure Strengthening Techniques

Postby goodgigs » Mon Oct 03, 2011 11:18 pm

[MaryAnn]

I was in a commercial airliner that dropped from 30k ft to about 25k ft in just moments.

You don’t want to do that.

For that, rather than strained vocal chords, I'd expect to need clean underwear.

[MaryAnn]

command+shift+5 (Sorry- couldn't help myself)

In reality, when I need to play very high, I think of tucking my bottom lip back. How far depends on how high I'm playing.

Haha on the command+shift+5.

Ever hear of The Balanced Embouchure method of development? Is a system in which the students do a wide range of lip positions from very rolled out to very rolled in, and find what works for them. It's written by a trumpet guy, made it sort of into the horn world, and tuba teaching is the ONLY place I've ever run into people who just flat out say they roll in (one lip or both) to play higher. I decided that is because the cup is large enough that the players can actually tell what they are doing and hence are able to teach it. With the little bitty cups, especially in the horn world, you'll get "play the sound you hear in your head" (although you are taking the lesson to find out HOW to do that) or "use more air." (of course you have to have faster air but that is not the "all" of it.) Tuba people rock!

[2ba4t]

Goodgigs, you definitely exist - unless you are into solipsism. [Ah that transparent, perhaps not really there tuba!!] But I humbly suggest that you owe the world a little more of your genius in explaining this elusive 'shift'. Perhaps it really involved shape-shifting and appearing out of the bell with a piccolo.

As to rolling lips in, it gives you at least a fifth higher. This was covered in an earlier thread - I cannot remember if it ended peacefully or in vitriol and spitting.

But seriously, did I see Aarnold Jacobs. name associated??

[timothy42b]

Yes, the anecdote referencing Mr. Jacobs has been discussed here previously. According to reliable sources, he got an effortless good quality high note with a slightly different embouchure placement, not apparently related to the rolling in that the Balanced Embouchure trumpet players use. Most likely this is exactly what the Reinhardt advocates do, and then they use their understanding of the "pivot" motion to descend into the low range.

The desire to play tuba far into the stratosphere has to be a bit weird. But the technique isn't necessarily wrong or a trick.

[happyroman]

The following is a passage from Brian Frederiksen’s Song and Wind presenting Jacobs personal experience with embouchure as a university student:

“Many players will have considerable difficulty playing in the low range at first, but usually the embouchure learns to cope with the low vibratory rate on a trial and error basis. There is a general principle of embouchure involved in producing range on the tuba. In descending into the lower range of the tuba, we play with somewhat thicker surfaces as they will vibrate more slowly and still give a firm sound. The opposite is true in the extreme upper range. Rotate the lips inward upon themselves rather than assuming a broad a smiling position. The resulting tighter lip surfaces will vibrate faster. We must be sure that the lips do not become stiff, or it will be difficult to obtain proper response.”

“There has been much controversy about shifting the placement of the mouthpiece for various ranges. When Jacobs first entered the Curtis Institute, he had difficulty with the high range. “When I got to classes and to my private studio with Philip Donatelli, I could hardly play the high notes. One day I asked Donatelli to play a passage from Berlioz’s Overture to Benvenuto Cellini. I was having problems getting the high G in that particular piece. Because he had a short upper lip, Donatelli had a mouthpiece with the top of the rim cut off making a flat section so it could fit under his nose. He simply shifted the mouthpiece placement up where he would play into the small section of the mouthpiece near the bottom when he would go up to high G.”

“Here I was, a former trumpet player and thought, ‘My God, he is changing his lip—his embouchure!’ I had read articles that advised never to change the embouchure. I had accepted this advice and never changed. When I saw him change, I took the horn back and tried the same thing. I played the G above high C, and the G above the G above the high C. I practically had all the high notes on the tuba that I did on the trumpet by using a trumpet embouchure. I never had any trouble with high notes after that.”

Frankly, I have never heard of an altissimo shift, but this shift by Donatelli that Jacobs discusses, and adopted, may be the kind of shift you are asking about.

[happyroman]

I also think that there is a common misconception regarding the definition of embouchure. It is the area of the lips inside the cup of the mouthpiece that actually vibrates. But many people define it as the entire facial structure that is visible outside the mouthpiece, including the location where the mouthpiece is placed on the lips (i.e., what they can see). This is an area where many people run into problems because the area of the face that one can see is not similar in appearance to the facial structure of other players, so they think they need to change their embouchure to something that is more conventional.

[happyroman]

Here's an analogy I thought of this morning. If you compare the embouchure to a golf swing, the part of the lips that vibrate inside the cup are like impact, and what is going on outside the cup is the motion of the swing that gets the clubhead to impact. There are all sorts of funky looking swings on the PGA Tour that produce excellent shots because they deliver the clubhead to the ball in a manner that produces a great impact position. Similarly, due to individual physiology, like tooth and facial structure, there are many different looking embouchures that produce beautiful sounds because what is going on inside the cup, where the lips actually vibrate and produce the sound, and are functioning very well. The stuff outside the cup supports what is happening at the vibrating lip, but just because it may look unconventional, does not mean it is not functional.