POLL CC Players-- How Low Can You Comfortably Go

[Worth]

This poll is for CC players just for standard reference and I think anonymous (at least to non-admin so please be honest) although the thread is for all. If the fundamental of a CC tuba is C1 (Pedal C), the sub-contra octave runs from C0 down to B0 (A0 being the lowest note on an 88 key piano). Norman Bewley's 5 Valve CC fingering chart goes down to F#0. I'm a non-music major so if I have this wrong please let me know. I realize that the lowest note someone can attain is MP and horn dependent and often defies practical usage, but the Snedecor Book 2 Low Etudes reach down to Bb0 and A0 in places. I'm comfortable with practical usage on my everyday mouthpiece (Dillon Roylance -- big 'ish but not huge) to B0, but frankly Bb0 and below on that MP is a crapshoot for me (depends on the phase of the moon and whether I'm slurring down to there) as I work to extend my practical range on this piece to Bb and A. With a Sellmansberger Symphony Bb comes into better focus but, for me, offers less control and focus in the mid and high range. I'm sure a Bayamo can probably get down lower. My question is how low should we practically be able to go with an EVERYDAY MP... AND do players out there switch up the MP when they know they are specifically working down in the extreme basement? I've kept the poll to practical range, not how low can you fart out a note that has no real purpose. I tend to work on the Low Etudes with my everyday MP but am not sure that is the intention. I'd appreciate input because if most CC players are comfortable down to Bb0 and A0 on MPs that are not buckets, I know what to work on.

[mmburntcheez]

I've found for my embouchure at least the most comfortable way to get down to Bb0 and down to G0 is by keeping my bottom lip near the bottom of the inside of the rim or cup and let my top lip buzz at that frequency. That may be different for some but for me at least it works.

[Worth]

Understand, wow I've never heard of or seen an 88 + 9 keyboard! I just figured if Phil Snedecor wrote the Etudes for Bb0 and A0 that those would be good goals. Of note, if I take my top lip completely out of the MP and leave the bottom flapping in the breeze within the MP I can attain superman status but sound like crap.

[Worth]

Saw your post from 2005
I personally had brief email correspondence with Lowell Miller several years ago...I believe he was the tuba player who recorded the "double-low F" (below the low A on the piano keyboard) in the arrangement of Asleep in the Deep with the Dukes of Dixieland. At that time (it is my understanding) that was the lowest musical frequency ever recorded on a commercial recording...
and beautifully executed too....

[MartyNeilan]

Depends on the tuba, time of day, how well I am warmed up, and how much I have played the past couple days. Bb below pedal C and usually the A are always there, although I sometimes have to initially scoop down a little. Many days the G a P4 below the pedal is there or close. Interestingly enough, when I was younger and practiced more I could barely even get the pedal, never mind going below it. My goal is to have a solid G day in, day out. In one of the Bobo Bach books, that G is there often in the Solfegetto and maybe other arrangements.
Sidenote: on my 6/4 BART project, I have the 1st valve cut to push in nearly a quarter tone. This was originally done to address a 40 cent flat D in the staff (now somewhat better due to dent removal and other work courtesy of TubaTinker). However it makes for a great in-tune low D at 1345 with the 1st pushed all the way in. My 4/4 CC with a more traditional 1st valve slide won't go in nearly enough to allow that fingering without seriously lipping up, and 2345 requires a lot of pull and/or lipping.

[GC]

G0 is pretty much my limit, and it doesn't matter if I'm on a BBb, CC, or compensating Eb. My low and high limits are pretty much the same on any key of tuba.

[DouglasJB]

My Lowest on CC is G0, MAYBE Gb0 on a good day. I would love to have a solid Eb0 one day.

[roweenie]

I've never made it without biting. Ask Mr. Owl.

The world may never know.....

My question is how low should we practically be able to go with an EVERYDAY MP...

As low as you can possibly manage.

Honestly, how does polling and/or asking how low others can play (or doing anything else, for that matter) possibly be of any assistance to an individual in reaching a personal goal (unless of course one is asking how it's done, which I don't think was your question.)

Set your own goals (whatever that might be), and work toward them. If you are successful, you will be comfortable with it. If not, it means you need to work harder until you are.

[Worth]

Honestly, how does polling and/or asking how low others can play (or doing anything else, for that matter) possibly be of any assistance to an individual in reaching a personal goal (unless of course one is asking how it's done, which I don't think was your question.)

Point well taken, but for those of us less hooked up in the musical community and without a point of reference I think it IS helpful to know where we stand in general as we work to improve. The results of the poll thus far are not what I expected with so many down to G0 and below. This is a surprise to me and maybe other players out there looking to improve. Although my question specifically did not ask "how," wouldn't it be nice if others (as mmburntcheez did) were to offer that advice rather than a general criticism of the poll and thread?

[roweenie]

I think it IS helpful to know where we stand in general as we work to improve.

Where we stand? Relative to what?

Your poll question demonstrates that you already know what is possible (listing notes by name) - so, why not compare your progress to that? Once again, I don't see the value (or purpose) in comparing your personal progress to what others are capable of.

[Worth]

Once again, I don't see the value (or purpose) in comparing your personal progress to what others are capable of.

What others are capable of can be motivation to progress and improve. Like listening to and wanting to emulate the greats, humbling but inspiring. I guess I'm coming from a different perspective as an amateur but this information helps me. I play in a pay-per-service Orchestra in a position which used to be staffed by undergraduate and graduate Tuba music majors so I feel the need to step up to the plate and deliver as I am being compared by others.

[2ba4t]

I am a little confused by all the above but two points might be suggested. This is a deep subject.

Testing an instrument:
The fundamentals - first harmonic/ partial of open and of each valve - - do help to test an instrument. I found the easier these notes are, usually the better the tuba generally and the more in tune especially the 5th, 6th and 7th harmonics. So a CC/BBb on which you can play the 4th valve's 1st harmonic GGGG/FFFF is probably a good bugle shape. On an F or Eb tuba, the CCC should be pretty accessible and ring out. ( Similarly - if the octave above the 8th harmonic is playable/squeakable - again it reflects on the entire range. )
So there is a serious point in being able to hit these super-low notes. In orchestra we need four octaves from CCC to an octave above middle c.

Embouchure:
The embouchure question rather hangs on what you need. For a huge, subterranean brassy boom an octave below the bones - I use only my upper lip deep in the mouthpiece practically - as described. For the quiet Der Drachen stuff I tend to start the note with the upper lip and then fill it by using the bottom lip as well.
How low an individual 'can go' seems to be a function of the width of the vibrating zone of the lips. Relaxing the muscles below the eyes completely and dropping the jaw helps - if you do not fall asleep.

[DouglasJB]

As for "How" I probably do it a bit different, on Ab0 and G0 (and the occasional Gb0 when it happens...) I play the notes using as many valves and therefore as much stwost and turns as possible, this (for me) helps add resistance. On G0 for example I would play it 125, this forces the air to change direction more thus adding resistance.

Again. Just how I do it, others can do so with as little resistance as possible, good for them, I cannot... yet.

[GC]

Too little or too much resistance is a range-killer for me. A horn that has the sweet spot of resistance makes a huge difference.

[Worth]

Thank you. Great stuff, constructive and interesting to hear different approaches to this one facet of the craft.

[cjk]

I can play the pedal G below pedal C any day on pretty much any tuba even if I haven't played in years. My face just remembers how to do it. I have never had to play that low in any ensemble and would question the need to even if it were written, unless it was in tuba "show off" piece written for other tuba nerds.