Small receiver tubas?

[timayer]

I posted a while back about a Boston Band Instrument Co. BBb I inherited. It came with its own mouthpiece, which was good because the receiver accepts what I can only describe as a contrabass trombone mouthpiece. My tuba mouthpieces don't fit.

With the contrabass trombone mouthpiece, the horn has almost no low register. When I very carefully hold my Bobo Solo mouthpiece up to/barely into the receiver, it opens up significantly.

So a few questions to follow up -

1. Why were horns designed like this? Was it to make them accessible to trombone player doublers?
2. Has anyone played a horn with this configuration and managed to sort out how to make it sound like a tuba? I'm sure I could get better on it with some significant time, but I can't imagine that it will ever sound great. Tell me I'm wrong? And I'll keep trying?
3. What's the best solution? Keep tuba as is and have a mouthpiece with a tuba cup and trombone shank made? Change out the receiver?

Caveat: I know next to nothing about horn repair maintenance, so ME changing out the receiver or constructing a mouthpiece is out of the question....

It would be fun to make it a Tuba Christmas tuba, but right now it is absolutely NOT FUN to play.

[bone-a-phone]

I had one kind of like that. I got a Wick small shank (trombone shank) mouthpiece that worked. I had a regular tuba mouthpiece that didn't really fit, but the low range sounded good. Changing the receiver seems like the best solution. It's cheap and fairly easy, and makes available all of the regular tuba mouthpiece wisdom.

[basslizard]

I have a small-receiver Eb tuba. It's in the shop right now - I think he's going to put a different receiver on it for me, or he's going to modify the cheap mouthpiece I gave him that only sort-of fits. I have an extra-small tuba mouthpiece from Kelly - it's lexan, and sticks out too far. The tuba also takes a bass trombone mouthpiece easily, but as you might suspect, the range is limited by the too-small cup.

I am thinking about throwing myself on the mercy of a certain mouthpiece maker and seeing if he makes a smaller shank I could use with my modular mouthpiece. Depends on what what I get back when I finally make it in to the 'city' to pick it up.

[hup_d_dup]

I have an old Courtois Eb with the same issue. Problem solved with a Wick 3. Although the small shank fits a bass trombone perfectly, this is a full size tuba mouthpiece, in rim size and throat diameter.

Hup

[Doug Elliott]

I make many different shank sizes for all of my cups, including bass trombone, euphonium, and tenor trombone shanks for my tuba cups. Yes they work.

[windshieldbug]

These horns were built for a different era with a different concept of bass sound.
The mouthpieces that were made for them in that era were midway between a bass trombone and a modern shank.
The horns were not built to be played as loud or as low as modern horns are.

The problem with trying to play them that way is that modifications are a crapshoot.
If you change the receiver you may create unsolvable intonation issues with a large, modern mouthpiece.
The horn will at the very least be mouthpiece sensitive.

On the other hand, it may be easier to have a mouthpiece made for the horn and test it's reaction.
If that creates a good match, then you can either use it or replace the receiver and use your favorite with fewer qualms.
Playing a vintage horn well with original equipment DOES take a lot of time and adjustment.
Only you know if you think it'd be worth it.

[timayer]

If you change the receiver you may create unsolvable intonation issues with a large, modern mouthpiece.
The horn will at the very least be mouthpiece sensitive.

Thank you for pointing this out - My technical expertise ending at "oil the valves," this was something I hadn't thought of.

Though the intonation issues with the current/proper mouthpiece are enough that it might be worth it for the improvement in the sound...

[iiipopes]

Though not advertised, Perantucci also makes small shank mouthpieces to order. Remember that with Denis Wick, the small shank is the "standard" number-sized mouthpieces without any letter suffix.

I agree that changing the mouthpiece and receiver geometry can foul up intonation badly. I found this out on my Couesnon flugelhorn. The Couesnon mouthpieces that are moderately deep with a moderate throat intonate very well indeed. By contrast, the popular Curry mouthpieces and others like them with deep cups and more open throats to try to get as dark a tone as possible go flat quickly in the upper register on my flugel.

[windshieldbug]

Though the intonation issues with the current/proper mouthpiece are enough that it might be worth it for the improvement in the sound...

Unless you are copying what someone else has done with that same model horn that you know works you may end up replacing the entire mouthpipe and receiver and STILL have no guarantee it will work. I’d try the mouthpiece route first...

[Doug Elliott]

I cut custom tapers for odd instruments all the time, it's not a problem at all for me to make something to match that will work as well as the instrument is capable of playing. And with your choice of rim size.

[GC]

Wick makes the small shank for their 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 cups. They fit fine in antique Eb tubas and Saxhorns. Some of Besson's older big BBb horns still used this small shank size.

[iiipopes]

Wick makes the small shank for their 1, 2, 3, 4, and 5 cups. They fit fine in antique Eb tubas and Saxhorns. Some of Besson's older big BBb horns still used this small shank size.

I used to own a Besson New Standard BBb 3-valve comp with the 17-inch bell; the same model of bell as I have on my Bessophone. It had the small receiver. With a Wick 1, it had the best tone and intonation from bottom to top (usable: 1+2+3 low E nat through top of the staff, no "privilege" tones and no stratosphere tones) as any tuba I have ever played. the 5th partials were perfect. 6th partials were not sharp, as they tend to be on Besson instruments, especially euphs. Even the 7th partials could be played with only the slightest lipping with top space Gb 1 instead of 2+3 and G nat 2 instead of 3 (remember, on a 3-valve comp, since 2+3 is in tune because of the comp loops, 3 is tuned "dead" instead of pulled for 2+3 and 1+3, and is used for G's and D's instead of 1+2, which is sharp when played 1+2 due to both 1 & 2 being tuned "dead" as well.) The only stuffy note was 1+3 C nat. I traded it to a friend who is a free lance composer and performer in Florida and needed a good tuba that he didn't have to futz with the intonation.

[GC]

The small receivers were definitely no bar to good response with bigger horns. Thanks for the detailed comments.

In the opposite direction, I used to use a Wick 3 with mid-1800's Eb contrabass Saxhorns. It may have looked funny, but it sure did open up their tones and made intonation much less of a struggle.

[MikeW]

As well as the options already mentioned, Kelly Mouthpieces used to offer
one or two small shank models in their stainless steel range, maybe they still do but I can't access their site until I get round to updating my operating system and browser.

Bach used to do a shank size they called "Boosey and Hawkes" which fits my small-Euro tubas (Couesnon and Besson/Boosey), but it was special order only (twenty or more years ago that added fifty bucks to the price). Maybe they still make them?

I had the receiver on my 1980-model B&H Imperial reamed out to take a standard shank and that seems to work just fine (but that model of Imp was already a proto-Sovereign except for the pistons and receiver, and mine had already been cut to fix its flat intonation, so bigger open-throated MPs don't give it any problems).

[Donn]

In a polycarbonate version, the Kelly "small shank" model I got was not as small as the Wick small shank.

[MikeW]

My stainless small-shank Kelly was also too big, but it fits fine in a Standard American receiver, so it doesn't really bother me.
I just assumed there was a shipping error. Maybe they stopped making the small shank models ?

[MikeW]

Probably not too relevant by now, but

The standard for older European (especially British) tubas used to be what we now call "Small Euro" or "E-flat" size
Its diameter at the tip is 0.49" (bass trombone is 0.496 or 0.5)

Some tubas had what is now called a "Medium Euph" receiver (in small bands, the Euph player doubled on tuba, with the same MP)
These were mainly European, but a few got stencilled in America. The tip diameter for these mps is 0.47"

There are still a few old Russian tubas (Leningrads ?) around with Tenor trombone receivers/mps
The tip diameter for these is 0.422"

Kelly mouthpieces website has a list giving the sizes of the receiver openings for these, so you can just measure the reciver to be sure of what you are dealing with.