Alexander Lore

[Ted Cox]

A few questions have been asked that I can answer. It's been a few days since I checked in.

Prior to 1975, Alexander bells were made with the V-shaped gusset. Since 1975, Alexander bells were outsourced and made with a circular seam. Owning two of each, I can tell zero difference.
Serial numbers showed up in 1975 as well. They are located on the top plate of the second valve - very small numbers. Don't try and make too much sense out of them. Alexander valves have also been outsourced for a long time now. Mostly they tell us whether or not the tuba was built prior to 1975 or after 1975.
With my four Alex's, I have four Kranz's. They're basically all the same - although the engraving is slightly varied due to whomever did the work. I've seen Alex tubas without a Kranz - FYI.
I've not seen unengraved valve caps however. It seems the older the tuba, the prettier the engraving. My 1960 F and 1963 CC have beautiful engraved caps.
My nickel silver Alex is solid - not plated. According to Anton Alexander himself (my wife spoke to him personally at a horn conference in the 90's) there were only five or six of these tubas ever produced. He said he had to bring gifts to the craftsmen who were building these tubas. Nickel silver isn't easy to work with.
Like the title of the thread states - "Alexander Lore." Some of what we know about Alexander instruments is true - some of it is not. We tend to romanticize the older instruments. We have to remember that they are HAND MADE instruments - each has a personality all its own. When I visited the new factory in 2011, an F and a 164 were on a large table being slowly built. One of my first impressions sitting in the main room where much was happening was how everyone was taking their time with their job. No one was in a hurry.

The 164 CC I've had for a month now is beautiful. It wasn't thrown together to meet some deadline. It was built in 2003. The reputation for the 164's is they play out of tune. There isn't a note on my 164 I can't play in tune - spot on! Yes, some notes I have to work at a bit harder than others. Having played it now for exactly one month - each and every day the pitch and sound have settled - because I'm figuring out the air. It's not the instrument - it's the player. Alexander's demand a certain type of air flow. Once you figure that out, the magic starts to happen. Part of the "lore" is the CC's were cut down BBb's. I recently saw a catalog linked somewhere on this forum that showed the 163 and 164 models dating back 100 plus years - either in CC or BBb. If you've never played an Alex tuba (as your number one horn), picking up a 164 for the first time and trying to make it work will be frustrating. The 164 is a bigger 163. I've played my 163 for nearly three decades, so approaching the 164 as a bigger version of the 163 has probably saved me a lot of time.

Alexander makes about 80 horns (French horns) per month. They are all sold prior to production. Alexander doesn't build tubas without an order. They will build you whatever you wish - within reason. If you stop by, there may or may not be anything to toot on. It's not like they have a show-room with dozens of instruments to play. We're so fortunate now to have such an amazing selection of great instruments to choose from. It's actually overwhelming to me. What is your priority in choosing an instrument? My priority is sound. First and foremost, we have to develop the sound we are chasing in our soul. For me, it's like having a specific color in mind - rather than living with the color that we may be given. Compare and contrast different instruments - with someone who has great ears! The sound of an Alex is better in front of the tuba than behind the tuba - we can't always tell as players.

[Chris Mayer]

Ted,

the older models (<year ??) where also designed that the mouthpipe enters the first valve in 45 degrees and also the anstoss left the 4th at the same angle. When did they change that design to enter and leave 1st and 4th in 0 degree and if you know, is anything affected by this ? The prior way was probably more elaborative and costly as to have more bends and als 2 valve casings (1st and 4th) with different configuration than #2 and 3. It is interesting to note, that in French Horn, Engelbert Schmid and Knopf still have such 45 degree entry of the mouthpipe into the 1st valve, whereas Geyer using the Knopf design and also various parts made by Knopf redesigned to a 0 degree entry into the 1st valve.

Having played Alexanders Tubas (163 and 164) for year in all kinds of harmonic, symphony and polka settings I can copy everything you have said and enjoyed your messages very much.

And, again, if you compare the prices (2019) of NEW Alex tubas, raw brass (163 @ 10,5k€ and 164 @ 12,6k€) with other offerings, yes a lot of money, but still an accessible range.

regards

Chris

[Ted Cox]

Thank you for the kind words Chris. I'm afraid your question is above my pay grade. I know exactly what you are asking, but don't have an answer. Of course, I could make something up, which a lot of people seem to do, but I honestly don't know. If I had to guess, I'd say pre WWII - but that's a total guess. The building Alexander still works out of was bombed during WWII. The Alexander family lived on the top floor. Back then it was five stories. When it was rebuilt after the war, it only had four stories as they ran out of money. Check out the photos. Before the war - bombed out - and what the building looks like today. An amazing history! I've heard stories where the family traded instruments for food after the war.

[Donn]

So this is all very interesting (seriously, one of the threads that make me wish we had a special archive), but ... these models came in both CC and BBb, didn't they? I believe there have been comments in the past here to the effect that the BBb versions were on the overage more successful, in terms of fewer intonation issues and so forth? I note the the mention earlier of a CC 163 that improved a lot with a new smaller leadpipe, maybe pointing to a common part that suited the BBb version better?

[bort]

Thanks Ted!

I'll take some pictures of my tuba eventually and post them for all to see. More than anything, I think you are right that the handmade aspect -- and the fact that Alexander makes a heck of a lot more french horns than tubas -- makes each Alexander tuba unique.

I've only had mine for a month, and have nothing bad to say about it.

Fun fact: my grandmother's family came to America in the early 1900s... From Mainz, Germany.

[Ted Cox]

Here is a photo from a 1914 Alexander catalog, showing the option of either a 163 or 164 in Bb or CC.
How the tubing is configured - lead pipe entering the first valve is also of note - mentioned in an earlier post.

[bort]

Wasn't there also an old model 159, which was a smaller CC tuba?

[Ted Cox]

I don't know the model number - but Dave Kirk of the Houston Symphony has the smaller model - a 4/4. I've never seen one.

[EMC]

I don't know the model number - but Dave Kirk of the Houston Symphony has the smaller model - a 4/4. I've never seen one.

Pretty sure its called a 173, I really was interested in buying one years and years ago but like you ive never seen one and only knew of one that was for sale that i couldnt afford. seemed like the perfect mid way point between the 163 and 155.

https://www.google.com/search?q=alexand ... GPscHZ_SLM" target="_blank:

[cjk]

I think I recall discussion of a smaller Alex CC which was roughly the size of an Alex F. The 173 appears to be smaller than a 163, but not by a whole lot.

[Ted Cox]

The Alex F tubas have a 18.5 mm bore size - or .728. Exactly the same as a Rudy Meinl 3/4 tuba. That bore size would work well for a smaller Alex CC.

[cjk]

I don't know the model number - but Dave Kirk of the Houston Symphony has the smaller model - a 4/4. I've never seen one.

I worked on it recently. It appears that quite a few of the F instrument parts were used in its fabrication.

Is this the same instrument?

https://www.facebook.com/houstonsymphon ... 159228970/" target="_blank

[youtube]http://youtu.be/lWAvO_pp_5M[/youtube]

[Ted Cox]

No, that's a 163. Doesn't Dave sound great?

[cjk]

Absolutely

[Chris Mayer]

There must be quite a number of specially made tuba modells. Would be interesting to see those (Alexander might keep files w/pictures of these makes).

I recall from an old price list of the mid 80-ties that there was a C tuba with 3+2 valves (Spain, italy, Romania,...).

chris

[Ted Cox]

Alexander has there basic model tubas, listed in their catalog - but they can make anything the imagination can come up with.
The photos show a double tuba, F/CC, that I played quite a bit while visiting. It was actually quite good and I made an offer to buy it. Too low, I guess. For a while, I argued this tuba was a compensating tuba, but after playing it and studying it, no - it's a double tuba.

[Chris Mayer]

here is a picture of the price list from 1981. In the catalogue, there were no pictures of the C Tubas mentioned in the price list. This was obviously pre model 173 time

there is a 5 valve 159. new model smal C tuba. although there is a reference to measures below, there is no spec listed. Due to the name, one can only speculate if the F tuba body was modified with a different bore and bell etc etc.

there is also a 168, same size as 163, but with the 3+2 valve set-up including different lengths of the valves.

chris

[Ted Cox]

Thank you for sharing that photo. So cool! It's amazing to see the double tuba as an option to buy.

[Chris Mayer]

I was told that these double tubas were going (mostly ?) to eastern europe or small theaters / orchestras who could not afford 2 tubas to play all the literature.

Played one alex double tuba in 2010/2011 and liked it (heavy and you could feel that pushing the valves, but there was a certain punch to the sound due to the mass of the valve section) and it did not feel stuffy at all. Of course it is a compromisse as B and F share the same mouthpipe and bell and hence the F was more fat then an F tuba (eg B&S, or Alex 157) and the B was smaller then the 163, but going from Vaughn williams to the walkyries in one second was fun (and any complaints about a weak low C can be eliminated...).

Eventally went for a 163, handmade and almost new to complement my PT-15 and Alex 156.

now beeing a french horn player with an almost similar or even larger number of models and types i sometimes get sentimental about my tuba playing time. At least, I play wagner tuba (F tube, Alpine sinfonie, Siegfrieds tod and next Bruckner 8th).

happy easter

chris

[MikeMason]

Never blown a single note into any Alex, but, would playing the b flat versions give you the sound without the intonation issues? And possibly be cheaper and more plentiful?