The 3+1 compensated EEb thread

[cjk]

I’m somewhat enamored with a the 3+1 compensated EEb tuba. They’re around but not all that common in the USA. I was hoping some of our friends in the UK and elsewhere could comment as to what’s still made or not, what’s good or great or rubbish, stuff like that.
It seems to me from what I’ve read that the English made Bessons from the 80s (later Imperials and earlier Sovereigns) were often the cat’s meow, but there was some variation. They were worse in the 1990’s? I've kinda hacked together a list of various makers which I've seen over the years, but never really paid that much attention to until more recently. I've labeled what I think is their current status with some questions or statements next to each.

* Besson - (before Buffet) Edgeware street, formerly English made.
* Besson – (Buffet) Are these currently German made? If so, are these using the English tooling or are they more based on the no-longer-made B&S EEb? or maybe something in-between?
* LMI – English. are they still in business? I’m assuming not?
* York -English, Keilwerth Schreiber got the actual English Besson tooling?, Does this still exist?, is this also now part of Buffet Crampton?
* Sterling. I now see John Packer using this name?
* B&S - I’m assuming these are no longer currently made given B&S is part of Buffet who also owns Besson.
* Courtois - French. these were made by B&S?
* Hirsbrunner - Swiss. still making instruments or not?

* Willson - Swiss. The Marty Erickson front action model is well regarded, but I never hear about the 3+1.
* Miraphone- German. bigger instruments compared to many, good pitch.
* Yamaha - Japanese. Used to make a 631, then a 632, now a 632 Neo. I’m a fan of the 631.
* Wessex – produces lots of neat stuff in China, Tubenet is probably pretty familiar.
* JP - John Packer. Made in China. Seems to use the word “Sterling” a lot. Are these related to the Sterling stuff that Custom Music used to carry in the US?

[ElementalTuba]

I have been really enjoying my Miraphone M7000 3+1 EEb. I find the pitch great except for the usual suspects on Eb-ers. The big bell makes a big difference in rounding the sound in my opinion.

[tbonesullivan]

I’m somewhat enamored with a the 3+1 compensated EEb tuba. They’re around but not all that common in the USA. I was hoping some of our friends in the UK and elsewhere could comment as to what’s still made or not, what’s good or great or rubbish, stuff like that.

* Besson – (Buffet) Are these currently German made? If so, are these using the English tooling or are they more based on the no-longer-made B&S EEb? or maybe something in-between?

* Sterling. I now see John Packer using this name?

* Hirsbrunner - Swiss. still making instruments or not?

* Yamaha - Japanese. Used to make a 631, then a 632, now a 632 Neo. I’m a fan of the 631.

* JP - John Packer. Made in China. Seems to use the word “Sterling” a lot. Are these related to the Sterling stuff that Custom Music used to carry in the US?

I am also quite enamored with the British style 3+1 Eb Bass Tuba. My next brass purchase will be one, once a suitable used one appears. I'm also gunning for a Yamaha YEB-631, to match my YBB-631. They seem to be very well regarded, though the main tuning slide is apparently a bit short, so many make it a bit longer. They are very good horns. It is my understanding that the YEB-632 was not as good of a horn. They tried to just slap a bigger bell on it to be like other makers, and didn't touch other parts of the instrument. The YEB-632 II Neo is the improved version, and is better from what I have heard.

Sterling Euphoniums are alive and well, and still being imported by Custom Tubas as well as Baltimore Brass, and probably others. John Packer has collaborated with various different companies when making their overseas instruments, and these include Rath for trombones, and Sterling for Euphoniums and Tubas. From what I understand, they designed the leadpipe, and made other design contributions. There are some dealers who post here who would know far more about the relationship than I.

Hirsbrunner unfortunately has closed their doors, as no one in the family wanted to continue the craft after several generations. I don't know how many 3+1 compensators they made though. Baltimore brass DID have a VERY interesting Rotary Eb 3 valve compensating instrument a while back.

[AndyCat]

I think if you can get a latish Imperial or New Standard, you'd be on the money. Or a new Yamaha. Besson Sovereigns, of any age, need testing first, some were real junk during the "lottery" times over here.
York, LMI, Courtois not doing them/exist. Yamaha Neo, Besson (new tooling), Miraphone, Willson all still do. I think Geneva and Sterling both do them now. (Joe Cook and Steve Sykes respectively are artists).

[cjk]

I think if you can get a latish Imperial or New Standard, you'd be on the money. Or a new Yamaha. Besson Sovereigns, of any age, need testing first, some were real junk during the "lottery" times over here.
York, LMI, Courtois not doing them/exist. Yamaha Neo, Besson (new tooling), Miraphone, Willson all still do. I think Geneva and Sterling both do them now. (Joe Cook and Steve Sykes respectively are artists).

Thanks Andy! Geneva wasn't a name I've heard before. I assume this is it:
https://genevainstruments.com/symphony/ ... -eeb-tuba/" target="_blank

How do new tooling Bessons compare to old tooling ones?

Does the English Sterling not have a web presence?

[GC]

The current state of Sterling: https://sites.google.com/site/sterlingb ... omingsoon/

FWIW, I bought a Packer/Sterling JP377 a bit over a year ago, and I wish I had gone 3+1 compensator years before.

To add to the list: Eastman makes compensating tubas that have been on the market for a couple of years but are just now making it onto their web site (still no pictures).

[AndyCat]

I think if you can get a latish Imperial or New Standard, you'd be on the money. Or a new Yamaha. Besson Sovereigns, of any age, need testing first, some were real junk during the "lottery" times over here.
York, LMI, Courtois not doing them/exist. Yamaha Neo, Besson (new tooling), Miraphone, Willson all still do. I think Geneva and Sterling both do them now. (Joe Cook and Steve Sykes respectively are artists).

Thanks Andy! Geneva wasn't a name I've heard before. I assume this is it:
https://genevainstruments.com/symphony/ ... -eeb-tuba/" target="_blank" target="_blank

How do new tooling Bessons compare to old tooling ones?

Does the English Sterling not have a web presence?

I think the new Bessons are ok yes, but most people I know are hunting out older ones and Imperials!

The Sterling Virtuoso has a couple of news items here:
https://www.4barsrest.com/news/28743/st ... k.facebook
https://vimeo.com/215044526?fbclid=IwAR ... 1Tx3YPNbF0

I have tried the Geneva ones a few times, but I'm no EEb expert so would hesitate to give valid opinions on any. Although we recently had one down at our band for an extended try, and we haven't carried on with it.....

[olaness1]

Sterling are certainly still made. Paul Riggett for a long time ran a man-in-a-shed business in Norfolk building Euphoniums, on his own, at a rate at about one a month. As far as i understand, he expanded and took on a small number of staff to make more euphoniums, and to widen the range into tubas as well. And unless my info is out of date (quite possible) they only make 3+1 Eb tubas. And they are supposedly very good, although I have never personally tried one. But also thicker metal/heavier weight than the likes of Besson, with all the pros and cons that comes with. And they did some deal with John Packer to design their budget, chinese made JP range as well, as did Michael Rath for their trombone range.

I had 10 minutes or so with a modern Mr Tuba branded Miraphone one, comparing it side by side with my mid-80s Sovereign, and sad to say, there was no competition. I personally would pay many thousands more for the Sovereign, and wouldn't part with what Mr Tuba asks for his model. Obviously search out a good one, because of the lottery issue Andy mentioned earlier in the thread.

[TubaBeage]

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/business/ ... n-14888946" target="_blank

Geneva Group his multi-million pound business, already has a base in Stokesley and employs 270 people in two factories in the Czech Republic.

Personally having had dealings with Tim Oldroyd in the past I decided I would not deal with him a second time.

[AndyCat]

The current-issue Sterling euphoniums seem remarkably similar to JP...
...so how about (rather than the oversized ones produced in the past - as I described, above) the comp E-flats?

The EEb has a trigger and some gold bling.

[tbonesullivan]

There seems to be very little, if ANY information on Sterling EEb Tubas out there. As for Euphoniums, everything I know about their business currently is from David Werden's forum, the Custom Tubas website, and some other sources. I didn't even know they were making tubas until just now. It's my understanding that a bunch of builders left Besson, and went to Sterling, which is when they became larger.

[cjk]

I have been really enjoying my Miraphone M7000 3+1 EEb. I find the pitch great except for the usual suspects on Eb-ers. The big bell makes a big difference in rounding the sound in my opinion.

So what are considered to be "the usual suspects on Eb-ers"?

I'm familiar with the usual tendencies of brass instruments, I was just wondering if there was something special about compensated Eb tubas.

[pjv]

I know a guy who owns 3 Bessons and a Yama 631. He plays the Yamaha exclusively. I've also compared this tuba to other Bessons. Better intonation. Blows much easier.

[cctubaneeds]

I have been thinking a lot about Eb tuba a lot lately too.

I have been through my fair share of instruments, probably too many. Bottom line, I keep wanting to be a CC player, but end up liking my EEb's so much more.

I play in a "Wind Ensemble". The group is very specific to only have 1 per part except clarinets (doubled). I bought a 4/4 CC for this purpose but I just don't like it(or even the better horns I have had) as much. Unfortunately I am the "low player" I practice and have the chops for the crazy low stuff this group plays so the CC works better, maybe I need to toss a bunch of money at a york copy like everyone else is doing....

I studied tuba years ago. I bought a sold, traded, used schooled owned, and was issued (army) many different instruments. When I took a break, bought a house and got married I sold every instrument and bought a B&H Imperial from a widow that wanted me to have it. I think it was the date range people claim EEbs were the best. It was in amazing condition but I didn't have context then but man that horn was good. Since that time I have played 8 different EEb's on and off. All of them ended up being very good, with only 1 being bad. The bad one is a 1913 Boosey and sons with really leaky valves, with really thick valve oil even it plays okay.

I might have to come to terms and just become a EEb tuba player again. I prefer the sound and character. For me pitch seems way easier to manage than CC or BBb.

The EEb's I have played (all I have spent months with not just picked up once)

82" 19" B&H Imperial - Amazing instrument, should have kept and best EEb I have played. Lots of character, perfect do it all horn.
Older (late 90's?) Besson 983 -pitch was rough, very mouthpiece sensitive. But still a very useable instrument
Newer (late 2000's?) 983 - pitch was better, build was better. Better than the other 983, I don't know what this instrument is trying to be, it not an F and it doesn't have that EEb tone to me
York (UK) Preference EEb - Vanilla, it was fine, the build was fine, very bland.
60's B&H Class A 4v Comp 15" - I think the valves were leaky, needed new guides. More compact sound, great solo horn
Yamaha NEO - Most similar to the Imperial I had, a little less colour but the build quality ease to play was there.

Currently have in my possession
1913 Boosey Solbron 15" - the lead pipe is chopped up and extend to bring to pitch, the valves were copper plated and still leak - With some work/parts maybe this horn will be fun
Besson Franken horn - Started life as a silver 4v comp, might have had a crushed bell or a small bell but an unmarked lacquered 19" thick brass bell was put on it. A new standard shank lacquered lead pipe was added too. I can't find a serial or any markings. This horn plays very well, not magical, pitch is good, it has been played a lot and signs of age. This horn needs thicker valve oil too.

EEb is natural to me. Does anyone else use EEb's like a contrabass? I might be wanted to much from my horns. I have started saving in my ideal world (in my mind right now) is there a path to having two Eb's? A Big and small? Is there one that is bigger/broader/more contra like than the rest? Miraphone? Sterling? Wilson?
The small ones are obvious what options that are out there.

[GC]

I use my Packer Eb for brass band, concert band, and quintet. However, I've lately begun to think I'd be better off with a small or medium BBb for concert band work. So much concert band music simply lies better on contrabass. I can play all of it on Eb, including notes on down to pedal Bb and lower, but sometimes it's just more difficult in the low register.

[Donn]

Does anyone else use EEb's like a contrabass? I might be wanted to much from my horns. I have started saving in my ideal world (in my mind right now) is there a path to having two Eb's? A Big and small? Is there one that is bigger/broader/more contra like than the rest?

Yeah, you can play the parts on an Eb. I'm doing it, with a big, quality 5V Eb, but ... I'm playing in the kind of group where you can do what you want. It's fun. It isn't a contrabass.

Everyone loves a car analogy, here's one from 1965:


It's a pickup truck, right? You can haul stuff in it.

If I was you, I'd keep my eye out for a contrabass tuba you like better, if you're going to have two tubas.

[MaryAnn]

Ain't nobody mentioned the Bombino. Nobody has one? It's more like a great big euph?

[Donn]

.

[cctubaneeds]

Going on Dwerden, the Adams euphs seems to be all the rage. I wonder if Adams will ever venture into Eb comps....

[GC]

Whether they actually made any, I don't know, but they were in their web site: http://hirsbrunner.com/lang/engl/instru ... index.html click on Eb instruments, and both instruments it shows are listed as compensating.