Tommy Johnson shift?

[gary]

Does anyone know what the Tommy Johnson shift is that Gene Pokorny mentioned in his interview with Chuck Daellenbach?

[Fritztuba]

Hello,
It is the repositioning of the mp (usually up though some go down) to give you greater control and power in the low register. Mr Johnson always told me that even though most people discover and develop it through blowing the crap out of low notes, you know you´ve got it when you can use it in soft dynamics. I studied my undergrad with Mr Johnson and my masters with Warren Deck. Warren also mastered this and both him and Mr J developed it on their own which I think is incredible. IMHO, this is an incredible technique and I´m grateful that I have it and use it daily. PM me if you need more info.

[b.williams]

Wait! What? We're allowed to shift? I thought all the experts said not to shift?

[groovlow]

Interesting
Fritz, this shift, is it on the surface of the lips and face or...
is it an angle change mouthpiece to jaw position ???
Thanks...Joe H

Mr J, wow, inspiring every time I hear him

[hup_d_dup]

Here is what Alan Raph says about embouchure shift in The Double Valve Bass Trombone:

First and most important, the extreme low register (down to pedal B (natural))
can be played and maintained with a normal trombone embouchure provided
the the jaw is dropped and the teeth set far apart. However, to play the lowest
notes on the bass trombone in most contexts, with certainty, and with a big
sound (projection, center, and accuracy) most players drop their jaw, AND
raise the mouthpiece upward, radically, allowing the bottom rim to sit upon
the lower lip, and allowing the top lip to "flap" (vibrate) freely.

Some players move up and use the top lip, while others move down and use the lower lip, but either way It is basically a one lip vibration. I have seen Derek Fenstermacher demonstrate this, and the volume he achieves is thunderous, wall shaking, in fact, frightening. He said it took a long time to learn to do this. You start with one note, and then slowly work in half steps to increase range, and also work on control to access a wide range of dynamics.

I've been working on this for a couple of years, and am just now beginning to produce notes (I'm a slow learner).

Hup

[groovlow]

Thanks Hup, top lip++

[happyroman]

Chris Olka discusses this in a couple of his drill of the week videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JU8SB-AlB6w" target="_blank

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_o57XvZl90w" target="_blank" target="_blank

[MaryAnn]

yup. On horn too....it is actually covered in The Balanced Embouchure, an embouchure development method written by a trumpet guy. On a small cup, the lower lip can actually be outside the cup. Works gangbusters and I have used it when I had an entrance on a loud low note that was otherwise a little iffy (on horn.)

[Doug Elliott]

Yes it works.
Lots of things "work."
You can also lift with your back muscles instead of your legs - until you injure yourself that way.
It is my opinion that that shift is a major contributing factor in the development of "focal dystonia."
Some people get away with it, for a while.
I remember watching Warren play in his prime, and wondering how long it would last.

[timayer]

I got advice on it from two very skilled practitioners of the technique in college. Bottom lip on the mouthpiece rather than in it. Corners pulled down much further than normal and VERY tight. And like everything else, practice the shift, and practice shifting in and out of it. One VERY skilled practitioner of the shift told me that while it's an impressive technique at loud registers, it's also more air-efficient, and he used it during the Bruckner 7 Adagio for the long lines.

The thing of it is - When done at FFFF, it's a very bright tone, and, frankly, it doesn't have many applications as a result (in my opinion). Prokofiev Romeo and Juliet Montagues and Capulets and in Mahler 5 with the added pedal Eb's in the 2nd movement come to mind. I.e., - When the bass trombone is already whacking out bright low notes, and the tone is justified. Otherwise, the tuba is very infrequently asked to perform a solo/soli line in the pedal register at FFFFF (Fountains of Rome?), and so using your normal embouchure will blend better with the basses and bassoons, and be more appropriate.

I played around with it in college. In Gliere 3, I used it to play the forte statement of the first movement brass chorale that starts out on a low E. Turned heads, because doing that shift on a Rudy 5/4 was a thing to behold when it was done right (and a couple times I fell into doing it right!). If I played the Gliere again, I probably wouldn't do it that way this time around.

All that to say, it takes a ton of work to learn to produce a consistent product with the shifted embouchure. AND it takes even more work to learn how to get into and out of it smoothly. All of that effort could be used to build up the normal low register, which gets used much more frequently, and no one will know what they are missing because outside of tuba players and some select trombone players, no one knows or expects that sort of sound to come out of a tuba.

[MaryAnn]

As usual I disagree with Doug on the cause of focal dystonia, but choose to argue no farther with someone whose mind is made up. If he would develop it he'd learn a whole lot about it he isn't already convinced of.

I think shifting to where a note is easiest for you is a prevention of focal dystonia, which is caused by struggling away at something you're unable to do the way you're trying to do it. End of commenting.

[tokuno]

Scott Sutherland discussed this in a masters class, and you can see it in his youtube videos.
A couple points I remember:
He uses it intentionally for a desired sound and volume effect
He spends significant time on his 'normal' setup to be able to play low range with or without the shift. I.e. TJ Shift is an extra tool in the bag for him, not the only tool.

[pjv]

Exactly that; make sure you can play it all in your normal setting and be able to switch between the two.

[Doug Elliott]

As usual I disagree with Doug on the cause of focal dystonia, but choose to argue no farther with someone whose mind is made up. If he would develop it he'd learn a whole lot about it he isn't already convinced of.

I think shifting to where a note is easiest for you is a prevention of focal dystonia, which is caused by struggling away at something you're unable to do the way you're trying to do it. End of commenting.

I don't need to justify my teaching or my playing to anyone - people come to me from all over the world with their playing problems, including those who have been diagnosed with FD by the "experts" - and I fix them.

[Fritztuba]

Hello,
To reply to groovlow, it is only moving the placement of the mp (most people go up with the mp almost touching the nose) so the air stream is redirected at another angel when you blow. Yes, many players like Chris and Derek currently use this and I haven´t played a low F or below on my tuba in more than 15 years without it and I´m grateful for it everyday. I´m not going to argue with anyone about if it can cause you problems or not because I respect any established player/teacher´s point of view. Let´s try to maintain civil and respectful conversations on this wonderful forum. However, IMHO, my logic and my personal experience (28 years in a full time professional orchestra and studies with Warren And Tommy) tells me that it actually makes things easier and there´s less stress and force needed to play really loud and soft in the low end. Once you have developed it, you might agree that it´s actually a more efficient way of playing in the low end because notes speak much faster, cleaner and you can sustain a note much longer and be more stable than in the non shift position. Nobody but Warren can talk about his experience with FD so let´s not speculate. Be well and stay healthy tuba brothers and sisters.

[happyroman]

Yes it works.
Lots of things "work."
You can also lift with your back muscles instead of your legs - until you injure yourself that way.
It is my opinion that that shift is a major contributing factor in the development of "focal dystonia."
Some people get away with it, for a while.
I remember watching Warren play in his prime, and wondering how long it would last.

This is a little off topic, but since we started discussing focal dystonia, I thought I would chime in.

I have had a theory, just a hypothesis really, that perhaps some of the issues tuba players have had with focal dystonia are the result of trying to play very loudly using way too much air pressure in the oral cavity. As we all probably know, Jake did a lot of studies in the 1950s with the principal brass players in the CSO-. In one, he measured the air pressure inside the mouth as each player played throughout their range. One conclusion he discovered was a doubling of air pressure as each player went up an octave. Another is that when two different instruments were playing the same enharmonic note at the same dynamic, the air pressure was the same for both players. Finally, when comparing tuba to horn and trumpet, he found that in general, we use three times the volume of air at one third the pressure. So, to make a long story short, since tuba is generally a very low pressure - high volume air flow instrument (with air pressure typically measured in ounces), if players are blowing the air hard, instead of fast, could this ultimately result in damage to tissues and/or nerves?

An analogy Jake used in lessons was to compare our air stream to the bow of a string player. When we want to play louder, we blow the air faster, and the string player moves the bow faster. If we blow the air hard (against the lips instead of fast across the lips) it is like the string player pressing the bow very hard against the strings. At a minimum, the tone quality becomes more strident, which was to be avoided. But I have always wondered if this could be one reason some players develop FD.

[Doug Elliott]

Yes, what you're describing is a poor approach to playing, but it's not related. The only "damage" it causes is in the listeners. And the player failing to realize there's something wrong with it.

I hear it a lot in bass trombone players too.