stupid? ideas -possibly of interest to skeptical trombonists

[bone-a-phone]

> single rotor B-flat/F bass trombone with an extra-long playing slide

72h is the closest you'll come to this. I don't think there is a TIS with the long slide. Most trombonists don't like 7th position because it's hard to hit in tune at speed. I can just barely reach it if I play to one side of my mouth. Most bass trombonists eschew anything south of 4th position. Because...valves. For a clever solution, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Arb4u40iNxs" target="_blank Also, I had an Eb attachment slide made for one of my single valve basses. That allowed a fully chromatic horn with a single valve. This does the same thing as your F attachment on the C horn.

> single-rotor-attachment C symphonic tenor trombone

There was someone on the tbone forum who made a C bass, but it had 1 rotor that was normally engaged, taking it back to Bb, but if they disengaged the valve, it was in C. So low C and B natural were pedal tones with the valve disengaged. And then the second valve was a normal F valve. Smaller lighter chromatic horn with better sounding C and B. C is the "money" note on a bass bone, and B is the "problem" note for most players. https://trombonechat.com/viewtopic.php? ... ***#p64649" target="_blank

[bone-a-phone]

I'm all about creative solutions to instrument issues. After spending so much time learning the slide and it's intonation quirks, playing valves is a huge adjustment. I can't imagine trying to go the other way.
If I had your skills with a torch, I'd be somewwhere between Dr. Frankenstein and Dr. Seuss. Bass trombonium, lap cimbasso, ergonomic trombone

[Donn]

Wonder if it might benefit from a leadpipe that's closer to what you'd have with a large bore trombone ... assuming that's significantly different from what's typically attached to baritone / euphonium valves.

I only learned to play it very rudimentary bass trombone, having found no real use for one, but I don't mind using the slide. It isn't super fast, but ... I don't like complicated systems that offer a lot of "6 of one / half dozen of the other" choices, and a 2 valve trombone sounds hideous to me, and there's the weight. Also I suppose if it's good enough for George Roberts ...

I tune the valve to E, so C below the staff is no problem and I can make a pretense of playing B. Tuned to F, I think that B might require that extension handle for everyone but Bob. Not sure I see how a fixed extension could get you out that far and not get in the way at 1st position, but there's always the G bass lever.

Finally - false tones? Fake tones study

[Snake Charmer]

If I had your skills with a torch, I'd be somewwhere between Dr. Frankenstein and Dr. Seuss. Bass trombonium, lap cimbasso, ergonomic trombone

+1!
Courtois made 8-position trombones in the 1920s/30s. And their trombones with F valves from this period were very comfortable to hold!

[TubaBeage]

Besson BE2056

[bone-a-phone]

If I had your skills with a torch, I'd be somewhere between Dr. Frankenstein and Dr. Seuss. Bass trombonium, lap cimbasso, ergonomic trombone

+1!
Courtois made 8-position trombones in the 1920s/30s. And their trombones with F valves from this period were very comfortable to hold!

Do you have a link to some info on the old Courtois? That would be interesting to see. Did it use a handle?

[timothy42b]

I'm not sure what effect moving more of the trombone total length to the slide section would have on tone.

It does seem a worthy experiment.

Two problems occur immediately: a lot of trombones are nose heavy already, so you'd want to add a counterweight. Second, 7 positions line up with 7 half steps by lucky coincidence. I think the real reason for 7 positions is that it fits the average length of trombone players' arms. That one isn't as easy to solve.

An Eb alto trombone also has 7 positions, but that's just habit. There's no reason they couldn't have 9. (they already look a bit deformed, but that's because the tuning slide has to be wider to get room, so that section looks shorter.

So where I'm going with this is that if you want 8 positions, an idea I like, then maybe Bb isn't the best key to build it in. Build it in C, D, or Eb. Now you have 8 positions you can reach.

You mentioned going to tuning in the slide. That adds weight to the slide, and a longer slide is already heavier. With 8 positions I don't think it's necessary. Just set up the instrument a little sharp, and do your tuning with your slide hand. I play all my trombones with the tuning slide all the way in, and concentrate on playing in tune with the right hand instead of the tuning slide.

[Rick Denney]

Toronado--a very cool car. Nothing unpopular or underappreciated about it at the time, it was just expensive.

(Of course, this one is a scale model, which demonstrates the point--models weren't made of uninteresting cars.)

Rick "ended because of the oil embargo and GM corporate engines, not because of unpopularity" Denney

[Snake Charmer]

Do you have a link to some info on the old Courtois? That would be interesting to see. Did it use a handle?

This is the only information I have:

courtois-Katalog 1926.jpg

And this is the one with he valve:

Courtois kl.jpg

[timothy42b]

That alto looks like a scaled down tenor, unlike modern altos that have a wider shorter gooseneck and look a little deformed to my eyes. I would like to play one like that.

Actually an 8 position alto would be very nice. Mine is way out on the stockings in 7th and wobbles, I sometimes accidentally pull it off on an E in the staff.

[Snake Charmer]

The Courtois tenors of this period are a bit funny to play: the bell is on 4th position. You better play with eyes shut! (btw this is a great exercise for intonation!)

Having only marginal slide technique - yet wishing I could play an instrument that absolutely offered a bass trombone sound, I have wondered about an English baritone with an English compensating ~euphonium~ valve section.

You should try a Courtois 366 Elite Saxhorn. I think it will tick all boxes of your wish list. The copy from Wessex (some years ago) which I bought for one of my students was pretty good as well, but Wessex stopped selling these for quality reasons. A lot of cheap copies were on the market still before Wessex started business, but most of those varied between not-so-good and unplayable.
The original Courtois is neat and compact, but with enormous power and a nice edgy sound when played with a bassbone mp. You can sweeten it up with a funnel shape mp, its a bit of a swiss army knife...(even from a french maker and produced in germany)
The Willsax from Willson is comparable, but it feels not so versatile and agile and is less comfortable to hold.

[Rick Denney]

Anything that requires a slide fails all my own tests.

But a valve bass trombone would be interesting. Four valves, please, or five. Larger bore like a proper bass trombone. Sort-of like a euphonium for tuba players, except that can product a characteristic bass trombone sound. It would only be used for quintet stuff from the Renaissance, for example, where esoteric slide effects would not be in the music.

I used to own a valve trombone and it was fun to mess around with. But the bore was too small and it only had three valves, so there was lots it could not do, even without slide effects. I used it as trade fodder for my first F tuba.

Rick "who can't manage one set of slide positions, let alone the several you guys are talking about" Denney

[timothy42b]

Rick "who can't manage one set of slide positions, let alone the several you guys are talking about" Denney

Yeah, but you manage tubas in F, Eb, BBb, and CC, with 3,4,5, and 6 valves. Seems more complicated than trombone to me.

[Donn]

It's one thing if you simply operate the valves, but anyone who's up for running 5 valves and a tuning slide, has little to worry about with a trombone hand slide. Well, aside from arm length.

[Rick Denney]

Rick "who can't manage one set of slide positions, let alone the several you guys are talking about" Denney

Yeah, but you manage tubas in F, Eb, BBb, and CC, with 3,4,5, and 6 valves. Seems more complicated than trombone to me.

Well, not really (not me, at least). I have F tubas with 5 and 6 valves, but the fifth valve means the same thing on both of them. I couldn't manage it otherwise.

And I don't play Eb or C tubas. One additional set of fingering patters was enough for me.

Moving a slide requires quickness and accuracy. The valves have hard stops in both directions, so they only require quickness. It makes a difference!

Rick "who has messed with trombones and even owns a couple, but never put in the time required to develop acceptable slide technique" Denney

[marccromme]

It's one thing if you simply operate the valves, but anyone who's up for running 5 valves and a tuning slide, has little to worry about with a trombone hand slide. Well, aside from arm length.

Achieving fast and fluent slide motion with accurate tuning, and without jerking and distortion of embouchure takes years to learn. Cleverly planned alternative positions help a lot.

Achieving fast and fluent 5 valve in one hand manipulation takes ..... . ... fingerings ...

Only sad thing is that its not the same years needed for both tasks. ..

[Rick Denney]

Just in case this has not been made clear:

I have tremendous respect for trombonists who possess superb slide technique and who execute it with superb intonation.

...but (seriously) anyone who is not in awe of great violinists has to have their head up their butt.

Yes, and yes.

Rick “gimme those frets” Denney

[Matt G]

If someone got ahold of the front action compensating euphonium Wessex is building, took some bass trombone ends and pieces, and built them in the spirit of the Miraphone “Python”, that would be a rowdy instrument.

Python social media post for reference:

https://www.instagram.com/p/CAFHU7AgLvY ... 43x8oeev0r" target="_blank