Eb tuba in a brass band

[oleirgens]

I have been reading your opinions on which instruments to use in a brass band, especially the views promulgated by His Blokeness, and I have decided to play a proper Eb-tuba in my community band henceforth.

However, one small but significant problem has arisen. My brain seems to be indoctrinated with the bass clef notation, which I use when playing the Cc horn in my concert band. As you are aware of, the Eb parts in a brass band exists only as transposed parts in treble clef. But my eyes and brain insists on interpreting also the treble clef parts as bass clef parts.

I have been playing the piano for years, and the concept of playing bass clef with the left hand and treble clef with my right is a no-brainer, so to speak. But switcing between tubas and learning my brain to differ between the two notations seems to be a more daunting task.

I therefore appeal to you, honored members of this board: Do you have any tips or tricks to ease my struggles, or is it only (as usual) hard work, ie blood, sweat and the occational tear?

[DCottrell]

If you can read treble clef, you know the "names" of those notes. Just translate the name of the note into your CC tuba fingerings and play that fingering on your Eb tuba and you will be fine. The biggest problem for me was not the note names ( I play other treble clef instruments), but adjusting 3 sharps or 3 flats to and from the key signature. Don't forget, the parts are transposed! Most brass band music is in a few home keys, as the rest of the band is playing Bb and Eb parts, so only rarely will you need to venture into extremes of key signature confusion. As with any reading skill, the more you do it, the easier it will become.

[Patrase]

Get some treble clef scales and play those regularly, should help

[tbonesullivan]

When did the compensating Eb's really start going to the 17 and 19 inch bells? Seems like most of the ones offered are intended for the "brass band" market, or the UK market. But they all seem to have 19 inch bells now. Is it to make them more appropriate for an "orchestral" sound, or is the desired "brass band sound" not what it used to be? Only Besson still offers the 17 bell as an option.

[tbonesullivan]

I guess this also touches on the old "MONSTER" Eb tubas, as well as the current F-tubas, many of which also could be considered MONSTER sized. The right tool for the job I guess. Bigger sound but also more nimble.

[hup_d_dup]

Get some treble clef scales and play those regularly, should help

The limitation here is that your fingers already know the scales, so you are not really reading the notes, you're just playing them, relying on muscle memory.

Try these 4 exercises, which have helped me in the past to get started with a new clef or new fingerings. Play each exercise going up and down.

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Hup

[GC]

Write in the fingerings for the first couple of sets of rehearsals and concerts. By then, if you're going to learn to fluently read tuba music in treble at all, you will have. If the librarians object to having the music written on, copy the pages and write on the copies. If there questions about legalities, keep the originals in the folders also.

Some people see this as an unacceptable crutch. If you need a crutch until you learn to walk, use it.

There's also some merit to buying beginner's/intermediate trumpet books and working your way through them.

[Ken Herrick]

Muse score can be a very good tool here.
Write out several Kopprasch exercises, Arbans excercises, scales, the excercises "Jacobs" then transpose them into all keys. Set the brain to "play" and DO IT. I
In effect you start as a beginner and, as beginners do, let the brain learn a new language which it then tells the fingers and embouchure to do the right thing. Over the years I have needed, at times, to become proficient at seeing all those specks of fly **** on a bit of paper and turning them into music using that approach. It involves some work, but it does work.

Back when I was studying with Jake he would put something up in some clef/key other than bass clef and say play it. Often he would pass me his Holton and say play this at proper pitch - it might have been set as a CC or it might have had the 5th valve set so it was a BBb.

I remember when I auditioned for Northwestern, down in the basement of orchestra hall, Jake came in with a Mirafone 184 and said he'd " be back in ten minutes". Straight away I knew it was a CC, and a beautiful player, but for "safety sake" played things as if it were a BBb. He was happy with what I did then asked if I knew I was playing a CC. Yes, I replied. Well, then, play it as a CC, said he, so I did.
Time spent learning treble clef and transpositions made it possible. It was based on setting a datum point and working from there.

One time at NU the sight reading for all the brass end of term juries was some weird clef transposition of a pretty difficult passage. I asked if they wanted it as if it were bass clef or in the correct concert pitch. 'Correct pitch". When I finished Vince Cichowicz, trumpet teacher extraordinare said,"I wish my students could do that so well. Frank Crissafulli, trombone, and Frank Brouke, horn, agreed.

I am not trying to boast here but, merely, trying to say work and concentration and good practice pay off. The human brain is an amazing "computer". Programming it can lead to amazing results.

The main lesson is; the more "hard"" things you do, the easie all the rest becomes.

[TubaBeage]

If you are playing TA Eb then use the other hand on the valves, your brain will do the rest. It's slightly ungainly, but it will trick the brain until it relearns and you can swap back to the RH. Worked for me when going from French Horn to BB BBb Tuba, but I had also played cornet many moons before and going to Fhorn with the LH was also no problem both in F and Bb.

[oleirgens]

Thank you guys for all your advice. As usual, there is no quick fix, only hard work, I guess. I will amalgamate all your answers into one single self-instructing tutorial, and hopefully I will be able to switch seamlessly between Eb tuba/treble clef and Cc tuba/bass clef when this weird state of emergency is gone, and we can go back to our rehearsals and concerts and seminars and competitions.

[iiipopes]

I am very lucky. I started elementary school band on trumpet. So Eb tuba parts, whether bass or treble clef, are easy for me on an Eb tuba. But kind of like trying to read C clef, I can understand how the lines being "one off" so to speak can wreak havoc for a CC tuba player.

[oleirgens]

Just a quick follow-up on this:

I had my first rehearsal with my brass band this week, and apart for some moments of confusion, the playing of transposed parts in treble clef went surprisingly well. I do write the fingerings on some of the notes, but for the simpler pieces (hymns and the like) I trust myself to play the right thing.

The horn is an old and aged Besson Sovereign, a bit clanky and worn, but with a great sound and quite good intonation. I use the same mouthpiece on both instruments: Denis Wick Ultra AT4U, and it works for me

[Z-Tuba Dude]

Just get a beginner trumpet book, start on page 1, and go through it methodically, one page at a time.

It won’t take long, because your fingers already know the patterns. It’s just getting used to looking at different symbols.

It is important that in the process, you treat this as if you are LEARNING A NEW INSTRUMENT. Forget what you already know about tuba.

[kathott]

........ALL of the instruments in brass bands are very specifically-designed. It's not considered to be "OK" to substitute French-horns-for-E-flat-tenor-horns, trumpets-for-cornets, bell-front-American-baritones-for-euphoniums, or trombones-for-English-baritone-horns...and the PROPER tubas are 17" - 19" bell B-flats (two), and 15" bell E-flats (two)...in my view.

Bloke speak good

[anotherjtm2]

When did the compensating Eb's really start going to the 17 and 19 inch bells? ....

My contrabass tubas don't even have 17" bells

[T. J. Ricer]

and the PROPER tubas are 17" - 19" bell B-flats (two), and 15" bell E-flats (two)...in my view.

I know this is all theoretical since neither of us is currently playing in a Brass Band, so I’m asking for an opinion:

What would be better paired with two 15” bell Eb tubas, 17” bell BBb tuba for originality and clarity or 19” bell BBb tuba for more distance/difference in the sound from BBb tuba to Eb tuba? One of each so as to offend as few as possible?

[marccromme]

What would be better paired with two 15” bell Eb tubas, 17” bell BBb tuba for originality and clarity or 19” bell BBb tuba for more distance/difference in the sound from BBb tuba to Eb tuba? One of each so as to offend as few as possible?

If you goal is not to offend any British brass band purist, you should stick to 19" Eb compensated sovereign, and 19" BBb compensated Sovereign. Period.

If you like better integration between Bbb bass and euphonium, at least the EB playing the upper voice should be slighly slimmer. 17" bell sovereign.

If you just want to play as beautiful as you can, ignore the traditionalists, play whaterver tuba that sings with a beautiful warm sound. Higher tuba voice slimmer, lower a fatter tuba. Or the tuba you have, if nobody wants to sponsor another.

I and my brass band are pretty happy with a EB MW 2141 44cm,, a EB new standard 19", a BBB Yamaha 641 17" and a BBB sovereign 19" Blends good, plays well together, bridges fine to euph and bass bone.

Only akward thing is that the Yamaha 641 is a four valved, and needs lipping down on 2+4 B natural and E, where the compensated and my 5 valve offer better intonation.

In case anybody complains about you tuba, ask them to persuade the band manager to buy the right one for you.

Unless you play in one of the top notch Britain brass bands, then you of course own the right one.

[ken k]

I played a Boosey & Hawkes Eb Imperial with the 19" bell for 30+ years, most of those years it was my only horn. After playing in the Lancaster (PA) British Brass Band for about 10 years I felt that I wanted a clearer more precise tone on the top Eb part, so I bought a Miraphone Norwegian Star and love the sound.

I also have a Miraphone 187 BBb for when I want to play in a larger group or want a more "Contra bass" sound. I do not play BBb in the brass band.

ken k

[marccromme]

.... After playing in the Lancaster (PA) British Brass Band for about 10 years I felt that I wanted a clearer more precise tone on the top Eb part, so I bought a Miraphone Norwegian Star and love the sound.
ken k

This is the exact reason why I like to play a MW 2141 EB tuba on the top EB part. I assume the Norwegian Star to behave similarily.

[tclements]

In my area, almost no one plays a "proper" brass band tuba. That is, a large compensating BBb or Eb "bass." So, for our purposes, I am continually checking that the instruments are 'blended' and do they sound beautiful. If yes, (since we are not a competing brass band), we're good.