Is the current double crisis going to bring orchestras down?

[Matt G]

Most of the people in the demographics of the typical orchestra patron are still working, albeit remotely, or simply have enough money that they are well-insulated from the closures.

I would agree that a lot of these people are going to be hesitant to be crammed into an auditorium for some time.

[bort]

I would agree that a lot of these people are going to be hesitant to be crammed into an auditorium for some time.

I would guess that these same people are unlikely to seek out virtual "stuff" in the interim.

[Donn]

Nor will these same people be first in line to return to large group events. There isn't any help coming in July. Maybe summer of 2021.

[roughrider]

No doubt all of what you stated is true. But, your dismissive quote above is demonstrative of what people on the inside can't see. If you feel unable to easily get to the hall or uncomfortable going - you won't go. People who don't go - don't donate. Orchestra's have largely failed to address this or made only symbolic attempts to do so. Big Cities have changed in the last decade or so. Used to be you could expect to go to an evening concert and not worry about being assaulted. Not the case any more I dare say in any of the major orchestra towns. When the CSO lets out it's like once you're out the door - you're on your own. Why they don't have security out on the street is unfathomable to me. They have attempted a few concerts the last few years out in the burbs. The problem is the halls can't seat any where near the numbers that Symphony Center does (Orchestra Hall - which is engraved on the building - & another dumb move on the CSO's part when they changed the name to I guess to what they thought sounded loftier - which confuses map systems when you use one or the other).

Consequently, the ticket prices are astronomical compared to going downtown. I ran the numbers based on their last union contract and the ticket prices do indeed reflect what they need to charge to meet their nut. I get that - but people just aren't going to pay 2.5 times what it would cost to go downtown. It's a complex problem as building a hall is expensive. They tried to get my county to build them a summer hall. They picked out a much beloved forest preserve. I personally would have fought them tooth & nail. It showed a real lack again of understanding on their part. They wanted the county to give them this land as well as $25 million dollars. I was stunned especially since the plan was only for a handful of concerts. This county doesn't and has never given up forest preserve land. That died with a giant thud. They have had a few extremely well attended concerts at the world renowned Morton's Arboretum for a few years. Those stopped a couple years ago. I suspect the arboretum was not going to build them a permanent site as to why they are no more.

Now the CSO does send me lengthy surveys every quarter or so. And to their credit they have brought some of these audience issues up. Some of the ideas put forth have merit such as buses from the burbs and back. Dropping you at the door and then picking you up at the door after the concert would work for a lot of people. But in looking at their suggested pricing it looked like rather than pricing this service at cost they instead decided this could be a serious profit center. What's interesting to me is they have surveyed the hell out of me for several years and yet I've seen zero changes. It's like the Titanic is going down and they've decided the best thing to do is to concentrate on rearranging the deck chairs.

When certain people/groups live inside their own bubbles (echo chambers) and are entirely ignorant of actual reality (as demonstrated by the aforementioned management), this is the type of disconnect that can result. This type of thinking isn't unique to orchestras trying to be viable in a real world. Universities, certain political parties, and many other groups (even the tuba community at times) fall victim to believing all the garbage that passes between their ears and out of their mouths, somehow ignoring the awful stench and completely avoiding reality, not to mention historical and empirical truth.

This is a complex problem that requires complex analysis. Unfortunately, most individuals refuse to engage in complex analysis and critical thinking, opting instead to rubber-stamp, one-word solutions, and that simply won't suffice with these situations. There is one thing that folks may simply not want to accept: Symphony Orchestras are continually declining (for many reasons), and that trend may no go away. With the continuing downward spiral of culture and society, how can anyone expect the amazing resurrection of the symphony orchestra and classical music (or all live music)? At the end of the 19th century, bands were popular. Many towns had there own bands that played regularly, and quite a number of professional bands existed. How many of those still exist? How many big bands (swing) still exist? The symphony orchestra has lasted a very long time, and I'm afraid it will have to reinvent itself in some way that we haven't yet seen in order for a great number of them to be successful. Management will most certainly have to do better at pulling their heads out of their blind @$$e$, stop trying to gouge every avenue for maximum profit, and try to keep the ship afloat. Is that going to suck horribly for the musicians? It already does, and the long-term outlook is currently not-so-hot. If the money ain't there, it ain't there.

Public money for the arts? Stop typing. Believing the American public would want to substantially prop up the arts when most of them only care about shallow pop drivel is more utopian folly. That ain't us, and it ain't gonna be us. Our overall culture has devolved beyond that. And if there is little actual market for it - people don't want to pay for it out of their pockets - most won't sign on to having their money spent on it for them by the government (your personal opinion on its worthiness notwithstanding).

There is no easy solution, and it doesn't appear that any single organization has the magic bullet. What's a player to do? Hang on until it goes off the rail? Retire? Get a different job in a different field? Busking with a tuba ain't gonna cut it, so then what? I can imagine that it is very concerning, even scary, for many of our professional colleagues, and I don't envy them. All my gigs have been canceled, but at least I have a day job (and another job besides playing). But if I feel the financial pinch, I can only imagine what others might be feeling.

+1

[Rick Denney]

The key phrase in Doc's post, which is what makes it relevant to the discussion of the COVID-19 crisis, is this:

"There is one thing that folks may simply not want to accept: Symphony Orchestras are continually declining (for many reasons), and that trend may not go away."

So, it is on topic to discuss why symphonies are declining. The fact that they are declining is what makes them so fragile, and therefore so vulnerable to being destroyed by a temporary health crisis. If they were robust, like, say, pro football games, there would be no kvetching about whether the pandemic will end it all, but rather discussions of the form in which it will make its comeback. That the NFL will make a comeback is obvious to everyone. But it is not so for music, and I included even a lot of pop music in that category.

This is a triple crisis. The first crisis is how do we make orchestra performance (as one example) relevant in modern America? That is a long-term crisis, but it is absolutely a crisis. Without understanding that, post-COVID-post-unrest comeback discussions will be working at the margins. And the discussion of performance venues being difficult to get to for people who have the money is right on point, though it is certainly not the only problem. The arts in education is part of the long-term problem, but for centuries that education was an aspect of family life more than school life. We've lost that, and I doubt we'll ever get it back.

We have to brand it as a social positive, and forget that word "culture". Culture is an outcome, not an input. People don't want to be cultured, they want to be cool, or hip, or relevant, or (in appearance, at least) rich, or they want to signal their virtue. Symphony attendance has been branded as something rich people do, like collecting art and traveling to exotic locales. But that branding hasn't been aimed at younger folks effectively--younger folks won't wear gold because of the message it sends, and attending a symphony performance has that appearance of wearing gaudy jewelry. To be relevant to younger folks, we have to add an element of virtue signaling--can attending a symphony performance be seen as virtuous in the (wobbly) scales of modern morals? That's the challenge. Orchestras are wine when the population is into craft beer.

The issue of accessibility comes somewhat into play here, with the younger folks. Younger folks who might want to be able to say they go to the symphony for social reasons or for virtue signaling will only invest so much in making that statement. It has to be enough dollars so that the appearance of wealth is not undermined, but not so much that it is actually unaffordable or conspicuous. But who's going to ride a bus to attend a symphony performance? That utterly undermines this appearance of wealth that is part of the motivation. Taxis are only relevant in a few cities. Uber is a better option, but expensive at peak times and unreliable for event traffic. There is probably more walking opportunity now than in the past, simply because younger folks seem content to be cliff dwellers, and we can present walking as virtuous. That means performance venues should be close to higher-density residential areas, not office and work areas.

Summary: I don't think current pricing is the problem--I think current branding and accessibility is the problem. And public funding can't fix that. My band peforms with ticket prices so low that the homeless can afford it, and still we don't get audience. Why? How can we be hip or present an image of high society when we perform in high-school auditoriums? And how can we tap into the landed gentry when we are a wind band--the large ensemble for the masses, as true in Sousa's day as today. How can attending a band concert performed by mostly middle-aged (i.e., old) people be virtuous? That's a challenge.

Fix that, and discussions of post-pandemic comebacks will have meat behind them. Don't fix that, and anything done to artificially manufacture a comeback will be working at the margins. With public money, we can pay musicians. But public money won't fill the seats, and without that, the taste for continued public money will eventually turn sour.

Rick "seeing the effects of COVID-19 on many orchestras similarly to its effects on the frail, near-end-of-life-anyway residents of nursing homes" Denney

[roweenie]

Music is not static - it's been evolving (or devolving?) since the Cro-magnon learned how to bang a stick on a hollow log to make sounds.

Never in history, up until the last two centuries, has it been possible to widely hear music from other eras, played live. Definitely starting with Beethoven, and arguably Mozart, it was generally accepted that composers wrote for their time, and expected that the bulk of their music would be replaced in future years by future works from future composers. (I seem to recall from my music history classes that the symphony hall concert as we know it, featuring works from previously active composers, really didn't take traction until the 1840s or so.)

Musical tastes change over time - why should "classical" music be any different? People in the 18th century didn't flock to concert halls to listen to music by Ockeghem or des Prez, why should we reasonably expect people en masse today to be interested in Mendelssohn or Gluck?

This is not my opinion on the music itself - I believe there's room for ALL kinds of music, especially in this age of digital data, and I personally believe what was achieved up until the advent of serialism was the pinnacle of Western music - it's just unrealistic to expect people to be drawn to music from other times just because "I think it's good".

Maybe, in some ways, it's an aberration that it lasted as long as it did?

[MaryAnn]

All I can think of is how glad I am to have spent my 30s back in school sleeping on the floor and living out of boxes getting my BSEE so I could have a retirement. If I had stayed playing violin in a regional orchestra and having a lesson business, OMG.
And I wonder what the guy is doing whom I sold the NStar to a year ago, because likely he has nowhere to play it.

[anotherjtm2]

All I can think of is how glad I am to have spent my 30s back in school sleeping on the floor and living out of boxes getting my BSEE so I could have a retirement. If I had stayed playing violin in a regional orchestra and having a lesson business, OMG.
And I wonder what the guy is doing whom I sold the NStar to a year ago, because likely he has nowhere to play it.

That must have been hard. Congratulations!

I got my BSEE the first time through school because it seemed to me even then that making a living with music was more work than I wanted to commit to (including a lot of work just finding the actual musical work). Looks like it's only gotten worse, even before this year.

[anotherjtm2]

Musical tastes change over time - why should "classical" music be any different? People in the 18th century didn't flock to concert halls to listen to music by Ockeghem or des Prez, why should we reasonably expect people en masse today to be interested in Mendelssohn or Gluck?

I still somehow like Switched on Bach, despite learning a lot about music since first hearing. So that's both low-brow and it does symphony orchestras no good.

[Donn]

Cultural and societal changes might have already signed the death knell for a nation full of symphony orchestras. They, along with other forms of live music, have been on fire already, and the Corona hysteria has poured jet fuel on the fire. What will rise out of the ashes if it all burns down?

There's a sort of classic argument over how the course of history is shaped. Is it the great individuals who put their stamp on an era? Pericles, Julius Caesar, Da Vinci, Newton, etc.? Or are they just the people who happen to be in the right spot when the gather storm forces bring the lightning down, and broad outline of history would be about the same whoever takes the lightning stroke and acts out the role?

I have no idea about that, but I think when it comes to the arts, it's the individuals. If there's a vital movement coming out in what is today the classical area, I'm not going to be able to see it coming, because I'm not going to be its creator. There's a lot of room to do things in today's scene ... at least, for free there is.

[roweenie]

All I can think of is how glad I am to have spent my 30s back in school sleeping on the floor and living out of boxes getting my BSEE so I could have a retirement. If I had stayed playing violin in a regional orchestra and having a lesson business, OMG.
And I wonder what the guy is doing whom I sold the NStar to a year ago, because likely he has nowhere to play it.

I went to music school, got two degrees, and then commenced to scratch out a modest free-lance living in the most competitive market in the country - got married, had kids, bought a house, etc. Then, over time I started to observe how miserably others in my profession, two or three decades older than I, were living. Even though things were pretty good at the time (late 80s/early 90s), I decided that that would not be my fate, and in some ways, I'm glad I did (in others, not so much, but that's between me and my therapist )

Over the last 40 years, I've seen the economy drop and rise several times - however, when the economy would rise to greater heights, each successive time the music business never came back quite as vigorously.

[Three Valves]

I feel bad for anyone displaced by a changing market/economy.

Ask me about what happened in Delaware to GM, Chrysler and the chemical industry and how industrial Union jobs were replaced by the banksters while you know what “served” us.

By PM.

[Donn]

SWE, I don't know what's going on in your world, people are going through a lot of bad things and maybe that's how it is for you, but you aren't doing it any good by pitching st at us. This is a bulletin board about music, that's what we talk about here.

[Hankcp10]

I wonder if it may be best practice for them to completely stop, then restart after the pandemic. There are lots of issues with their financing and audience that even online or discounted formats won't fix. I think it's kind of messed up to tell the players to wait for reopening and then lose millions while the orchestra hangs on for dear life in lieu of the vaccine. As some before said, maybe this is the time to really revamp the orchestra scene in America and restart from the bottom up.
I'm a college student who might like a stable playing job in 10 years. Seeing the Houston scene crumble in months speaks so much to the anxiety everyone in their 20's practicing their faces off for something that maybe won't even exist in a viable way.

Cultural and societal changes might have already signed the death knell for a nation full of symphony orchestras. They, along with other forms of live music, have been on fire already, and the Corona hysteria has poured jet fuel on the fire. What will rise out of the ashes if it all burns down?

[roweenie]

I'd be happy if y'all banned me, it would save me the effort.

Hmmmmm.......doesn't it take more effort to participate than not to.....?

[roweenie]

I'd be happy if y'all banned me, it would save me the effort.

Hmmmmm.......doesn't it take more effort to participate than not to.....?

Maybe you should take a minute to organize your thoughts.

Is that all you've got? Bring something.

Coronvirus denial and overtly political posting is allowed by certain members here because of sponsorship. This is not a surprise for people who look at this space for more than a couple weeks. That's why traffic here is pathetic. The place is hollowed out.

My quote of your post had nothing to do with Coronavirus, world overpopulation, or the price of tea in China -

Before you jump down my throat, take two seconds to notice that I quoted only one sentence of your post. I was just pointing out that you don't need get banned - simply just stop participating (it's not mandatory, you know).

[roweenie]

"Oh no, how will I properly service my rotary valves?!?"

If you've got a tech-specific question, you should try posting in that forum - there are usually some knowledgeable people there that could help you.