Lube Master Super G mouthpiece

[peterbas]

Deleted

[tbonesullivan]

Those are available in the hundreds, and the whole reason for creating ~a~ mouthpiece for myself - years ago - was that I was sick and tired of wearing through plating, sick and tired of a surface against my skin that is so easily scuffed and scratched, and sick and tired of my skin reacting (little water-filled blisters) to silver and gold contact.

Dyshidrosis is something I get on my hands sometimes, for "idiopathic" reasons, which basically means they have never been able to determine why I get them. However SS is definitely a great option for anyone who gets any type of contact dermatitis.

Also, as another sidebar, I know more than a few G&W users who went for the Titanium option simply because "IT'S FREAKIN TITANIUM". Marketing works in strange ways.

For myself, I don't understand why Bach Mouthpieces are any more expensive than Faxx mouthpieces. Any R&D costs were paid for ages ago. By all rights Bach standard mouthpieces should be the cheapest around due to their volume, but they are not.

And now, I also did not say anything before, but I also chuckled a bit at the name "Lube Master" especially when paired with "Super G". I almost expected to hear about when his next album was dropping.

[MonsterOil]

Okay then, how much *should* a mouthpiece cost?

Yes, the mass produced ones cost less... a Bach 18 costs under $100 right now. And even the Robert Tucci mouthpieces are right around $100, which is a heck of a value.

Other things cost more... And I think there are a lot of reasons things cost what they cost... but most of that doesn't really matter in the end. A few examples here, prices are for silver unless otherwise noted:

* Stofer Geib -- $225
* Mike Finn -- $175
* James R New -- $200
* Stork -- $275
* G&W -- about $250 for stainless, about $500 for titanium
* Monette -- $410
* Thein -- about $350
* K&G -- about $150
* Breslmair -- about $125
* Werner Chr Schmidt -- $210+
* Blokepiece -- $250+
* Dillon -- $195

So, $175 for the Super G isn't such a bad price in my eyes. Yeah, its still a chunk of change to find out what you think of it (and my goodness, could those measurements on the website be more useless!). But it's not an unreasonable cost, and you've got to find out somehow. Maybe we've been spoiled with the mountains of used tuba mouthpieces (and used tuba mouthpiece costs), to help us dial in what we are looking for.

What I would want to know, though, is where the mouthpieces are made... As a valve oil company, I'm assuming they send these out to be manufactured elsewhere, and that would be good to know where they are made. I'm not doubting the merits of these mouthpieces, but it is odd to me to see a valve oil company with a lineup of mouthpiece s. Also, I'm sorry, but I'm not sure I'd want to play on a mouthpiece called "Lube Master".

Hahahaha!! Knew this was coming. Yes indeed the Lube Master. We knew the name wasn't for everybody. But pleasing everybody is boring.

As for specs and measurements - I know, I know, this is also not going to please everybody. We made a decision to not release specs, but rather describe the mouthpiece. Why? Because measurements are almost worthless. Diameter is sort of important. Everything else, like throat, backbore, cup volume, etc... are all worthless. Because they are all so interdependent on each other, and they ignore a bunch of other REALLY important things, which can't be easily measured on a spec sheet - such as the shape of the cup and the shape of the rim.

So we stuck by our description, which hopefully you'll find accurate. All we know is that every single player who has played this thing has absolutely loved it - and that's not an exaggeration - every single player.

Hope this clears things up a bit. It's tough to break into the mouthpiece market. Especially as a lube company. Of course people aren't going to take us seriously afa mouthpieces. But in this case we really did our homework and made what we feel is an amazing mouthpiece.


Best,

Tom

[GC]

Because measurements are almost worthless. Diameter is sort of important. Everything else, like throat, backbore, cup volume, etc... are all worthless.

I have to disagree. Diameter is often a determining factor in whether someone tries a piece or skips over it. A giant throat is not good for people who need a mouthpiece with some resistance. A tiny throat will not work for someone who has to move huge amounts of air. Backbore, so inconsistent and often poorly described, so yeah. Cup volume, yeah, but depth and profile are definitely important (we know that it's a Geib profile, though). "Comfortable" rim? Some people love rims that others wouldn't play on for two seconds; totally flat rims are fine with some, others like cushion rims, some people don't care.

I think you made a bad decision using a "description" that doesn't really describe anything meaningful. I've been looking for a smaller than 33mm Geib cup with a rounded rim and a throat that's not oversized for a while, but with no description, I'm not likely to try yours no matter how good it looks until more opinions hit TubeNet.

[bort]

Measurements are not secrets.

Couldn't we just measure it ourselves?

[bort]

Measurements are not secrets.

Couldn't we just measure it ourselves?

...and suddenly, the thread becomes Freudian...wtf...??

Thinking more like your blind date saying... Could we at least know how "sturdy" the mouthpiece is?

[Donn]

Because measurements are almost worthless. Diameter is sort of important. Everything else, like throat, backbore, cup volume, etc... are all worthless.

Diameter is often a determining factor in whether someone tries a piece or skips over it. A giant throat is not good for people who need a mouthpiece with some resistance. A tiny throat will not work for someone who has to move huge amounts of air.

I don't know, I have a hunch that you can move as much air as you've got, through for example the exceptionally minuscule Miraphone C4 throat. There isn't that much difference, to really affect air flow by itself.

I'm not saying there's no difference from one mouthpiece to another, just that he might be right, the results come out of a few of those parameters working together. Likely at the extremes, the exceptionally big throat for example will have a predictable outcome as it dominates the multivariate function, but in the more common range, the throat size doesn't tell you anything by itself. Conn Helleberg 8.2mm vs. 7B 8.5mm? Not just too small of a difference to be important, you can't even count on which direction that tiny difference is going to go.

[GC]

It's certain that factors combine in unpredictable ways in mouthpiece design, but there are still things that are predictable. I have a couple of mouthpieces with small throats that I can't play as loud as I sometimes need to. I've had large throated/backbored mouthpieces that gave such low resistance that I couldn't use them. And as for measuring them ourselves, somebody's gotta buy one to measure it, which there has already been reference to in an earlier post. I appreciate the efforts of the folks who did it.

Bort, can I ask who made the custom Geib for you?

[bort]

Bort, can I ask who made the custom Geib for you?

Jim New made it... Here's his Website:

http://james-r-new.com/" target="_blank

No tuba stuff mentioned here, but if you email him, he will write back and get you set up. All of the tuba pieces are made to order, so asking for a customized backbore wasn't really an issue. Just had to wait a couple of weeks to get in the production queue. The Geib cost about $200, and took about a month (I think) to have it made.

[GC]

Thanks.

[Donn]

It must depend on what he's up to when you make contact. I was lucky enough to get a deal for a small batch of Conn 1 replicas, but I hear that was after other such requests had been turned down.

[bort]

Well, I can't tell you what Jim did or didn't do, only he knows that. Just relaying what my experience was. One guess -- since he is doing work for Ferguson now, maybe he's already making more tuba mouthpieces now that he has in the past?

[MonsterOil]

Because measurements are almost worthless. Diameter is sort of important. Everything else, like throat, backbore, cup volume, etc... are all worthless.

I have to disagree. Diameter is often a determining factor in whether someone tries a piece or skips over it. A giant throat is not good for people who need a mouthpiece with some resistance. A tiny throat will not work for someone who has to move huge amounts of air. Backbore, so inconsistent and often poorly described, so yeah. Cup volume, yeah, but depth and profile are definitely important (we know that it's a Geib profile, though). "Comfortable" rim? Some people love rims that others wouldn't play on for two seconds; totally flat rims are fine with some, others like cushion rims, some people don't care.

I think you made a bad decision using a "description" that doesn't really describe anything meaningful. I've been looking for a smaller than 33mm Geib cup with a rounded rim and a throat that's not oversized for a while, but with no description, I'm not likely to try yours no matter how good it looks until more opinions hit TubeNet.

I certainly respect this opinion. I'm a trumpet player - and I'm sure I've owned well over 300 mouthpieces at various times. I can't tell you how many times I've tried a new mouthpiece, loved it, and learned that it had a throat completely different from what I thought I could play on. Same with rim diameter, cup depth, backbore, etc... In fact, this is a very common thing mouthpiece manufacturers and dealers will tell you - oftentimes they'll have a player come in looking for a more open blow/bigger throat/backbore, etc... The manufacturer will say 'try this', hand them a TIGHTER mouthpiece, and the player will love it.

It takes a VERY delicate balance of all the sizes and, more importantly, shapes of a mouthpiece to work in harmony to create the perfect product.

Laskey 30G with a more comfy rim, in my opinion, is pretty descriptive. Most everybody knows what the 30G is. As for comfortable rim - how are we supposed to measure that? Again it's a particular shape that most players find really comfortable. How to describe the width, shape of the arc, bite, etc...?

Again, it is absolutely impossible to make everybody happy - but we felt this was the most accurate way to describe this mouthpiece.


Best,



Tom

[bort]

It takes a VERY delicate balance of all the sizes and, more importantly, shapes of a mouthpiece to work in harmony to create the perfect product.

Absolutely. That's the whole point of research and development... same goes for instruments, too. Things on paper don't always work out in reality.

Laskey 30G with a more comfy rim, in my opinion, is pretty descriptive. Most everybody knows what the 30G is. As for comfortable rim - how are we supposed to measure that? Again it's a particular shape that most players find really comfortable. How to describe the width, shape of the arc, bite, etc...?

I've always thought the Geib rim was my standard for "comfortable". What was wrong with it? What's different about yours? Is it wider? More rounded on the inner edge? Is that peak closer to the inside edge or outside? What is "comfortable"? I'd argue that your rim might be less comfortable for me, since the Geib rim on its own is pretty much ideal for me.

Some ways to describe the rim:
* inside diameter and outside diameter (we can all subtract those and divide by 2 to get the rim width)
* how flat or rounded is it?
* what's the inner rim like? Rounded or sharp?

I particularly like cross-sections of rims, and the ones in the Windhager catalog are really nice.


Source: http://www.whf-mouthpieces.at/kataloge/ ... F_Engl.PDF" target="_blank" target="_blank" target="_blank

You can read the rest in there if you like... but I kind of geek out on this level of measurement precision and information. I get the concern about people start to shop by numbers and specs, instead of by sound and (careful...) by feel. But at some point, specs are important to get closer to what we're looking for.

It's like buying clothes... I guess if I bought pants that were designed for someone less than 4 feet wide and less than 7 feet tall, I'll end up with something I can wear. My actual size is 36 x 32... but some brands I'll wear a 34 x 30, and others I'll wear 36 x 30 or hopefully 36 x 32 as I'd expect. No, the actual numbers are not important, just that the pants fit. But it'll help an awful lot to at least not waste time (waist time? ) with sizes that are obviously not right for me. Some people might say "baggy pants are comfortable, these are more comfortable pants." But I'd see them as pants that don't fit, and that's just an obnoxiously uncomfortable and unnecessary thing to wear clothes that fit poorly.

[MonsterOil]

It's like buying clothes... I guess if I bought pants that were designed for someone less than 4 feet wide and less than 7 feet tall, I'll end up with something I can wear. My actual size is 36 x 32... but some brands I'll wear a 34 x 30, and others I'll wear 36 x 30 or hopefully 36 x 32 as I'd expect. No, the actual numbers are not important, just that the pants fit. But it'll help an awful lot to at least not waste time (waist time? ) with sizes that are obviously not right for me. Some people might say "baggy pants are comfortable, these are more comfortable pants." But I'd see them as pants that don't fit, and that's just an obnoxiously uncomfortable and unnecessary thing to wear clothes that fit poorly.

Yes!!! Ooohhh...I looooove the pants analogy. 36 x 32 is very vague. But it does get you in the ballpark. For us that part of it is saying "30G". Gets you in the ballpark. But then for the details. How high is the crotch in your pants? Are the legs straight? Tapered? How much? How much room is there in the tush? Are they designed to almost touch the ground, or stay up near the upper ankle? I'm certain you don't read about all of those things when you buy pants. You just try the things on. Sometimes a 36 x 32 will feel amazing, and other times it will feel awful.

This mouthpiece is the same deal - if you like the 30G, we think you're going to like our piece even better. Now if we didn't all have full-time jobs, we might have time to offer trials on these things. But, alas, we don't have anybody to sit around cleaning and repackaging mouthpieces all day for players who want to kick the tires and send it back. Honestly wish we did, because people who play this thing love it.

Thanks for the spirited discussion! That's what I love about the TubeNet, you guys speak your mind!


Best,

Tom

[Ulli]

Stainless steel is... anti-allergic.

Sure enough?
There is a drag-out of nickel.
I have lips problems, when I use a stainless steel mpc (SSH)

[GC]

It takes a VERY delicate balance of all the sizes and, more importantly, shapes of a mouthpiece to work in harmony to create the perfect product.

Laskey 30G with a more comfy rim, in my opinion, is pretty descriptive. Most everybody knows what the 30G is. As for comfortable rim - how are we supposed to measure that? Again it's a particular shape that most players find really comfortable. How to describe the width, shape of the arc, bite, etc...?

Mostly I can agree with that, but it's not impossible to describe a mouthpiece rim: flat, semi-rounded, well-rounded, sharp bite, moderately rounded bite, very round bite, all of which carry more information than nothing. The accuracy of what's meant by them is of course open to interpretation. Still, a cross-section diagram and a picture can do wonders.

And "comfortable" is in the eye of the beholder, and you can always find someone who thinks mouthpieces are comfortable that other people wouldn't play for more than seconds. After all, the old, flat, sharp-edged Conn Helleberg 120 rim was a favorite of thousands of players, and I absolutely can't stand to play on one for more than a couple of minutes.

I wish you success with the new mouthpiece, and I hope you sell a ton of them. I won't buy one unless I switch back to contrabass tuba because of the size; I've moved to smaller diameters because of what fits my Eb's better, but I think you've definitely hit a needed market niche. Some of us just like data and not impressions.

[Donn]

Stainless steel is... anti-allergic.

Sure enough?
There is a drag-out of nickel.
I have lips problems, when I use a stainless steel mpc (SSH)

According to research from the '90s, the steels used in Giddings & Webster (304) and Kelly (316) are supposed to bind their nickel tight enough that not much comes off. That will depend on circumstances, though - if you boil an acidic sauce in a pan made of that stuff, there'll be detectable amounts. I expect the old research is aimed at earrings etc., and I bet a quarter no one has studied stainless mouthpieces.

Polycarbonate plastic: the mouthpiece material of the future.

[tubalamb]

Figured I'd chime in on this thread as I do have a Super G (two of them actually), and I'm using the mouthpiece in a fairly consistent manner. I should mention that I do know and work with the Monster Oil crew, but I'm not paid by them. Take that for what it's worth.

A comparison is only as good as what you know, and my usual stable of mouthpieces on CC includes the Dillon Olka CB2, the Dillon Roylance CB1 (TDC Light), and an old Schilke Geib.

The Super G is really good. I think the 30G description is accurate. While I don't have 30G at home to compare, I do have an old Schilke Geib that was made by Scott Laskey when he was still at Schilke (i.e. my Schilke Geib is a fairly accurate predecessor to the Laskey 30G). The Super G definitely feels wider . . . this could be because of the rim contour being less sharp than the Schilke Geib or it could be because Super G is a bit wider. Frankly, it doesn't matter as I like the way the Super G feels and sounds.

As far as the rim contour goes, the Super G is less like the Schilke/Laskey sharpish contour and more like the Dillon-Olka contours. It's not too wide of a rim width, and it still has plenty of bite for clean attacks. On my face it does not feel as aggressive of an inner rim as the Schilke/Laskeys. With the Super G, I feel like I could play a two hour, non-stop band concert of John Williams music then go home later that night and still practice if I wanted to. However with the pandemic and all the summer concerts being cancelled, I actually have not been able to test this yet.

In general, I think they have a really good product. It's well made, and I like the sounds I get with it. I'm going to keep playing it for awhile and exploring what I can do with the Super G. Hopefully my description can help some of the questions folks may have about it.

Cheers!