Scherzer Sander CC - where is it from?

[anotherjtm2]

I now have a Scherzer CC tuba that looks a lot like the one at Baltimore Brass that had some recent discussion at viewtopic.php?f=2&t=46686, and I'd like to know more about it.

I've seen comments that say it was a B&S/VMI stencil brand, and others imply it was a separate company that was eventually pulled under that umbrella. I was hoping to find a VMI serial number on the receiver, but all the receiver says is "Made in W. Germany". So I'm wondering if this is old enough to be pre-VMI.



It's a little shorter than a 186, and the bore is very slightly smaller (sorry, I have a tool sufficient to tell me only that much, but not an actual number). E in the staff is slightly flat, but overall intonation is nice.

Here's the only branding on it:



The keys have been completely replaced, the bar they're mounted on is probably not original, and the bar is in a completely different place (there are solder patches on the tubing where the old one was replaced), so there's no serial number on the bar.

There is a number on one valve: 446 or 977, maybe.



Do these slots in the valve actuators mean that it originally had S links?



There's also a pronounced keel.



Anyway, it doesn't look like I can just send a serial number to a B&S expert to check, and I'd love to get at least an estimate of its age, if not some more information about where it came from.

Before I forget: it has a really lovely sound, even when it's me playing it. And it feels very easy and ... direct, maybe, like you're really close to the horn. Sounds good soft, too.

[anotherjtm2]

Also, thanks to tylerferris1213 for a great buying experience.

[Tom]

Interesting. This one, at first glance, looks very Rudy Meinl to me.

One thought: It seems to be (or has been) common for shops in Europe to brand instruments they’ve done significant work on (overhaul, refinishing, etc.) even if they didn’t originally build it. I wonder if this tuba is actually something else that was worked on by Scherzer which could explain the markings. I could be totally wrong and don’t mean to imply that you don’t know what you have, just a thought.

[anotherjtm2]

.... I could be totally wrong and don’t mean to imply that you don’t know what you have, just a thought.

Well, I don't know what I have, but its striking similarity to the tuba at Baltimore Brass makes me think that there was at least a series of tubas branded like this.

[bort]

Reminds me of a MW-30. But Scherzer DID actually make tubas, IIRC. I'll have to dig up the old posts when I get a chance.

It's a beauty!

[Tom]

Yes, there are Scherzer tubas. Sorry, I didn’t mean that there weren’t. I’ve seen F, CC and BBb (and trumpets). I am not familiar with all of the details on their history.

I just thought this particular one seems very Rudy Meinl like. Probably a totally irrelevant comment. Carry on!

[oedipoes]

Interesting. This one, at first glance, looks very Rudy Meinl to me.

It does not look like a Rudi to me...

[bort]

One other thought... I hope the replacement paddle bar is properly situated. The rotary Willson that I used to own came to me with aftermarket valve linkages. The paddle bar was positioned too close to the valves, and the ergonomics just weren't good at all until I could get it replaced with new stock parts. Then it was a whole lot better.

Your tuba looks great. Maybe a photo of you playing it? Hard to get an idea of size of the horn.

I'm happy for you that you bought it and enjoy it!

[tylerferris1213]

Thank you! I'm so happy you like it.

[anotherjtm2]

One other thought... I hope the replacement paddle bar is properly situated. The rotary Willson that I used to own came to me with aftermarket valve linkages. The paddle bar was positioned too close to the valves, and the ergonomics just weren't good at all until I could get it replaced with new stock parts. Then it was a whole lot better.

Your tuba looks great. Maybe a photo of you playing it? Hard to get an idea of size of the horn....

The bar is in a different place because it's attachments are a different shape (not gracefully curved ). The keys end up in a very comfortable place, at least for me.

It's pretty compact; smaller than the B&S CC Musica I've been playing, and slightly lighter. It sounds bigger and deeper, though.

[toobagrowl]

Reminds me of a MW-30. But Scherzer DID actually make tubas, IIRC. I'll have to dig up the old posts when I get a chance.

It's a beauty!

^ This.


Your particular Scherzer looks very "Meinl-Weston parts" to me, not Rudy Meinl and not B&S/VMI. Obviously, the linkage has been replaced at one point.

I'm thinking Meinl-Weston supplied parts to Scherzer, and Scherzer assembled the parts into a tuba -- basically a M-W 30 assembled at the Scherzer/Sander shop in Augsburg

There have been other brass makers that bought parts from other makers, and assembled them themselves.

Nice looking tuba

[anotherjtm2]

Reminds me of a MW-30. But Scherzer DID actually make tubas, IIRC. I'll have to dig up the old posts when I get a chance.

It's a beauty!

^ This.


Your particular Scherzer looks very "Meinl-Weston parts" to me, not Rudy Meinl and not B&S/VMI. Obviously, the linkage has been replaced at one point.

I'm thinking Meinl-Weston supplied parts to Scherzer, and Scherzer assembled the parts into a tuba -- basically a M-W 30 assembled at the Scherzer/Sander shop in Augsburg

...

Interesting. Thanks. Any idea how I could estimate an age? 1980s? Were German makers still using S links then?

[bort]

Are you really tall? That tuba sure doesn't look so big... But it does look like an absolute winner. Again, congrats.

Age ... Someone else will have to answer. 80s seems like a decent guess. Have you looked around in Klaus' archives yet to see if there are other Scherzer tubas like yours?

PS, I like this thread, because it seems like something I would have done after buying a tuba like this.

[anotherjtm2]

Are you really tall? That tuba sure doesn't look so big... But it does look like an absolute winner. Again, congrats.

Age ... Someone else will have to answer. 80s seems like a decent guess. Have you looked around in Klaus' archives yet to see if there are other Scherzer tubas like yours?

Oh, yeah! Thanks for reminding me about Klaus' archives. Edit: There are some pics of 4V BBb tubas with similar style and markings, but no help on a date.

Not really tall. It's shorter than my BBb 186 (which has a Yamaha bell, so it might be shorter than a normal 186), and lighter.

[anotherjtm2]

...
PS, I like this thread, because it seems like something I would have done after buying a tuba like this.

Heh. I'll watch for that when you do.

My other tubas (which I should now sell) already had plenty of information on TubeNet: there's no shortage of 186 comments, and there were a few threads that nailed down the B&S-made Musica CC pretty well.

[toobagrowl]

Interesting. Thanks. Any idea how I could estimate an age? 1980s? Were German makers still using S links then?

Honestly dunno. Your tuba could even be from the 1970s, and refurbished/overhauled at some point (maybe when the linkages were changed?). But I do know Meinl-Weston used the early Minibal/ball-&-socket linkage (pre-3B linkage/post S-arm linkage) in the 1980s and 1990s. My 1990s M-W CC has the Minibals on the stop arms, but T-joints under the spatulas. I see the 'slots' for the S-arms linkage at the stop arms on yours, so they very well could have originally been S-linkage, and the tuba possibly from the 70s. Who knows for sure

My other tubas (which I should now sell) already had plenty of information on TubeNet: there's no shortage of 186 comments, and there were a few threads that nailed down the B&S-made Musica CC pretty well.

So, which tuba you like the best: Scherzer, B&S Musica, or Mira 186?

[Dan Schultz]

Interesting. This one, at first glance, looks very Rudy Meinl to me.

It does not look like a Rudi to me...

There are a few items that a dead-ringers for Rudolf Meinl... the thumb-ring and some of the braces/ferrules. The lyre holder does not. None of this is any big surprise to me and certainly does not mean that I think Rudolf Meinl had anything to do with the horn. What this means to me is that there were many 'cottage industries' that made various items and assemblers often simply bought parts from others for horns they 'manufactured'.

[toobagrowl]

Interesting. This one, at first glance, looks very Rudy Meinl to me.

It does not look like a Rudi to me...

There are a few items that a dead-ringers for Rudolf Meinl... the thumb-ring and some of the braces/ferrules.

The large thumbring, braces and ferrules are EXACTLY like the ones on my M-W 2155R. There are a few models of M-W tubas that had the same features.

They look SIMILAR to the ones on Rudi tubas, but not exactly the same. The large round backplate for the thumbring is slightly oval on Rudi tubas. The thumbring backplate is completely round on this Scherzer, like on some M-W tubas. The etched lines in the ferrules on Rudi tubas are slightly closer to the edges, whereas on this Scherzer tuba, they are not as close to the edges -- just like some models of Meinl-Weston tubas. And the 'fancy' bracing with round flanges/feet are classic Geretsried-era/rotary Meinl-Weston

[anotherjtm2]

This 1965 Miraphone has fancy braces with round feet that are pretty similar. Is that the sort of thing that manufactures put a lot of thought into as distinguishing design elements?

[anotherjtm2]

My other tubas (which I should now sell) already had plenty of information on TubeNet: there's no shortage of 186 comments, and there were a few threads that nailed down the B&S-made Musica CC pretty well.

So, which tuba you like the best: Scherzer, B&S Musica, or Mira 186?

The Scherzer is definitely in the top three. The Miraphone BBb has an easier fuller low end. The Musica sounds brighter, like it would blend nicely with higher brass; the high end is really easy and in tune, and it just sings. I like the way the Scherzer handles best, and I love the resonant sound. I need to try it in a much bigger room, though, to really know what it sounds like.