Can you identify this tuba from 1919? IDENTIFIED?

[Dave Detwiler]

Hi all,

I'm just about done with my article for the ITEA Journal on the Anglo Canadian Leather Co. Band and its world-class tuba players - among whom was the great Jack Richardson.

Can you identify the horn that Richardson is holding here, in a photo from the 1919 Canadian National Exhibition in Toronto?

Photo 7 - Richardson, 1919.JPG

If you look closely, there seems to be a fourth valve pointing straight out, about a foot below the third valve (or am I seeing things?). Plus, note the oddly angled tubing/slide by the bottom bow, which is partially blocked by the euphonium player's head.

If it helps to know, there are two Sousaphones in the band (in the larger picture), which were clearly built by Holton. But I can't find any Holton tuba that looks like this one.

Any thoughts on what it is?

Thanks!
Dave

[toobagrowl]

Dunno, maybe a Distin BBb tuba It sorta has that crossover British-American look to it; that's why I say Distin or maybe Keefer. Could be wrong. Can you upload the full band pic with the sousas?

[roweenie]

Could be just an imperfection in the photo, but I think I see the tell-tale Boosey "gonad crusher" on the bottom bow......?

It also appears to have an extra-length main tuning crook, bringing a High Pitch horn down to Low Pitch?

Prolly not an American-make, in any event. Maybe some of our brethren across the pond can answer?

[Ace]

Richardson was a large man with a serious "take no prisoners" facial expression. I can just see him as a secret service agent guarding the president.

Ace

[timayer]

' sorta hard to tell, from a Distin's.

Shut it down. We have a winner.

[Dave Detwiler]

Meanwhile, any other replies that are actually helpful?!

Matt Walters just let me know that he has never seen such a tuba, so I'm not holding out much hope. But weigh in if you have a thought about this unusual tuba.

Thanks!

[Dave Detwiler]

Perhaps Klaus’s archive?

Thanks so much - although could you clarify what archive that is, or more importantly, where it is?

[Donn]

I didn't see anything in Klaus' archive, but there's a Couesnon with that front 4th, on horn-u-copia. It's quite different otherwise, though.

My guess is going to be, ordinary Conn or something, with a 4th valve grafted on. Whatever you think of 3+1, this isn't the way to do it, so special request would make more sense than standard production.

I
I That archive - photos compiled by our esteemed late member Klaus Bjerre
V

[Dave Detwiler]

That archive - photos compiled by our esteemed late member Klaus Bjerre

Thanks for posting that link (at the bottom of Donn's post above, if you didn't catch it) - I just dipped into the archive for the last hour; my goodness! Too bad there aren't thumbnail photos to be able to quickly see what is there. But what a resource!

I already found confirmation for some early valve clusters that Holton used with their upright bell Sousaphones (they look very much like the Buescherphone valve clusters). And I even found some pictures of my own, taken in my basement of the original Sousaphone, built by J. W. Pepper in 1895 (he gets the date wrong by a year, somehow).

[Dave Detwiler]

I didn't see anything in Klaus' archive, but there's a Couesnon with that front 4th, on horn-u-copia. It's quite different otherwise, though

Bingo! I think we've solved the mystery of this tuba!

Here is the tuba in 1919 (photo at the top of this post), and right next to it is what appears to be almost the same exact tuba from the 1912 Couesnon catalog - and notice that you could get it with a fourth valve if you so desired (fine print at the bottom of that photo). The third photo is what Donn found - a 1937 Couesnon tuba with a fourth valve in pretty much exactly the same place as the tuba that Richardson is holding (even though other aspects of the layout are different - although it is, what, 18 years later!).

Couesnon comparison.JPG

So, it appears to be a Couesnon from 1919 or earlier, with the fourth valve option included, and in the way Couesnon apparently did that, and also with some additional tubing, probably to correct the pitch for that band (as someone noted above).

Thanks for everyone's help - and the bits of humor along the way!

Of course, now the question is, what was Richardson, that giant of the Sousaphone, doing playing a tuba with an outrageous French accent?!

[toobagrowl]

^ Too many differences to be a Couesnon (overall bugle geometry/taper, different 2nd slide, etc.), and I see no top bow ferrule on that tuba like you do on Couesnon tubas. But if you really think it is a Couesnon, then ok

[Dave Detwiler]

^ Too many differences to be a Couesnon (overall bugle geometry/taper, different 2nd slide, etc.), and I see no top bow ferrule on that tuba like you do on Couesnon tubas. But if you really think it is a Couesnon, then ok

That's the beauty of the word "appears" - my conclusion is tentative. But pretty much everything lines up to lead to that conclusion - and it's esp. notable that Couesnon did do that funky fourth valve thing - at least years later.

And are you saying there are "too many differences" between the first two photos? I don't see that, other than the ferrule you mention (and, of course, the missing fourth valve), although the first photo is seven years later than the second, so could that possibly explain that difference?

[Donn]

My reaction was "quite different otherwise" for mostly the same reasons. It seems a lot more likely chain of events that starts with a typical Conn of the era and ends up with the mystery tuba by adding a valve, than for Couesnon to substantially change their bell, outer bows and general valve tubing layout, around that valve. Particularly when that's such a dorky place to put the valve. Richardson could have encountered this design on a Couesnon tuba, though.

[scottw]

Note, too, the very different bell diameter. The MTS is shaped very differently, too. If I were a betting man, I would say it is not that Cousenon.

[roweenie]

Other than the orientation of the branches and the valve circuits, it sure looks like a Couesnon to me.

I had mentioned earlier the weirdly shaped long MTS crook (IDK if anyone read my post?).....any of the brass banders in England will tell you they played in high pitch right up until about 40 years or so ago. It wasn't uncommon to fit those horns with MTS crooks like that to play on this side of the pond.

My bet is its English - it is after all an Ontario based band, no? And once again, I do think I see a ball on the bottom bow also......?

[humBell]

I would like to point out the main tuning slide is in the lead pipe, in the loop before the valves.

The loop by the bottom bow could also be a main tuning slide, but consider it might be the 4th valve tuning slide.

And in this era, the 4th valve lowering the pitch a perfect 4th was not necissarily standard, so the extention loop visible in the original picture past the fellow's ear may well be bringing a major 3rd 4th valve down to a perfect 4th.

I do think it is a rotary valve though, if for no other reason than a piston stem would cast a longer shadow.

Thanks as always for a good thread to follow!

[oedipoes]

This could be a Mahillon B tuba as well, we have a very similar instrument in the band room, although it's from the 1950's.
The 4th piston pointing at 90° forward is identical in setup, I'm quite sure it's not a rotary valve in the picture shown.
See (not very sharp) picture below:

Mahillon B tuba 3+1.jpg

[Dave Detwiler]

Thanks so much for all of the great input!

One thing, though, that might be worth emphasizing, is that I was NOT suggesting that the third image, in that group of three images I created for comparative purposes above, was supposedly a dead-ringer for the 1919 horn. It is clearly different, in the various ways you all have pointed out.

What I was struck by was how very similar the original horn was to the second image, from a 1912 Couesnon catalog, where the proportions and layout of everything appeared identical (excepting the missing fourth valve, of course).

The reason I included the third image was simply to show an example of the very same fourth valve, in exactly the same place and orientation as the original photo, albeit on a much later Couesnon (1937).

Also, for what it's worth, in looking at similar Conn, Buescher, Holton, and even Besson and Boosey horns from that time period, the Couesnon comes closest to what Richardson is holding in the original photo.

[Dave Detwiler]

This could be a Mahillon B tuba as well, we have a very similar instrument in the band room, although it's from the 1950's.
The 4th piston pointing at 90° forward is identical in setup, I'm quite sure it's not a rotary valve in the picture shown.
See (not very sharp) picture below:

Mahillon B tuba 3+1.jpg

Very interesting! Perhaps another contender for this unusual horn, although it would be ideal to find this layout, with the fourth valve in that curious position, in an older Mahillon. A quick check on horn-u-copia didn't find one.

[Donn]

For what it's worth, I can't find any pictures of Mahillon or Couesnon tubas with a cavalry dingus on the bottom.