Problematic attack: how to master?

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CaptainNemo
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Re: Problematic attack: how to master?

Post by CaptainNemo »

bloke wrote:It is possible to win golf tournaments with ugly/spastic swings, as the only goal is to minimize the number of strokes.

It’s more difficult to coax smiles (as well as donations and ticket sales) from music patrons - when producing ugly sounds, just because someone producing those sounds feels certain that they are going about it technically and physiologically correctly, via research/analysis/statistics/etc.

Yet others seem more fascinated in posting debate rhetoric than in achieving the ability to produce a marketable and aesthetically pleasing product.
This is a horrendous comparison between two fields with entirely different metrics of success.

A golfer does not care about aesthetics and thus can win a tournament without much regard for them.
A tubist does, and because tuba playing is a physical activity, it follows that there are technical, physical, and anatomical factors that go into the creation of a decent sound. (This isn't to say that a beautiful sound leads to beautiful playing, as understanding of the music and the audience are also critical).

This is similar to a painter choosing just the right paints, and ensuring that the paints are empirically of a high quality. There is no subjectivity in the quality of paints and their ability to endure, which is largely the debate going on in this thread - technical knowledge which serves to expand the facility for musical expression. The painter still needs to have vision, and the tubist still needs to have musicality, but the technical aspects make the end product easier to achieve and more reliable.

Just because YOU personally do not approach tuba playing in a technical-before-musical way does mean that it is an invalid method of playing. I'd argue that patrons are more likely to notice a technical mistake than they are an artistic decision.

For players trying to develop their sound and technique, "technical talk" can make all the difference in the world as a means to clearly discuss differences in technique. Sure, there isn't a 1-1 correspondence of "I keep my teeth 3mm apart so you should too", but the ideas of teeth together/separate, more upper/lower lip, etc are all things that must be discussed, in order that they become something with which young students experiment.

If you try and suppress all technical discussion, you suppress the sharing of information that may lead young players to discover their own sound faster than blind experimentation.

That said, I agree that just because someone THINKS their technique is right does not mean they are creating their best sound. But without the ability to discuss technique clearly and objectively, there is little hope for correcting their technique.
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Re: Problematic attack: how to master?

Post by timothy42b »

bloke wrote:
bloke " 'golf swing over-analysis' ↔ 'musical articulation over-analysis'...a superb analogy, and judged to be so - by peer review "
Agree.

But.

Some of us cannot improve without the indepth analysis, it's the way we're built. The natural athlete and the natural musician will always outplay us. That's life.
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Re: Problematic attack: how to master?

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Re: Problematic attack: how to master?

Post by MaryAnn »

Well, after all the hoo-hah and falerol above, I had a similar problem when I went from F to CC. F and euph were fine, CC was bleah. I was not using the thicker, slower, more abundant air column needed for the CC. I figured it out eventually.
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Re: Problematic attack: how to master?

Post by timothy42b »

Doc wrote: IMHO (inherent value notwithstanding :lol: ), in-depth analysis is good, but NOT while we're actually playing. The focus while playing should be on the message. Sure, you are aware of how the message sounds (that's part of the deal), but over-analysis while playing is counter-productive. .
I almost completely agree. We focus on details and drills in the practice room, and this is where analysis counts, but when we play we trust ourselvbes and make music.

Where I quibble is in calling it analysis when we get in trouble playing. It isn't. I firmly believe there is no such thing as "paralysis by analysis." The athlete's "choke" is never analysis, it is over self consciousness, over awareness, and so is our problem as musicians. We suddenly pay attention to something we shouldn't, and then we focus on it, and then we doubt, and then we're screwed up and never get back.

I did not mean to say the natural athlete or natural musician doesn't work hard. They do, they put in the hours to build their skills. But they have often don't have a clue what they're actually doing, just that it works. I meant natural in the sense that they are goal oriented, like inner tennis, and don't worry much about the mechanics on the way.
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Re: Problematic attack: how to master?

Post by Leland »

bloke wrote: this...
My "naturally and freely" golf swing looks WAY different from his.

Meaning that I wasn't given the correct mechanics to begin with.
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Re: Problematic attack: how to master?

Post by hbcrandy »

bloke wrote:' wanna screw up a performance?

Just start thinking about what you're doing. :|

+1
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Re: Problematic attack: how to master?

Post by happyroman »

peterbas wrote:
bloke wrote:It is possible to win golf tournaments with ugly/spastic swings, as the only goal is to minimize the number of strokes.

It’s more difficult to coax smiles (as well as donations and ticket sales) from music patrons - when producing ugly sounds, just because someone producing those sounds feels certain that they are going about it technically and physiologically correctly, via research/analysis/statistics/etc.

Yet others seem more fascinated in posting debate rhetoric than in achieving the ability to produce a marketable and aesthetically pleasing product.
Where is that golfer with spastic swings that won a PGA tournament?

So all those athletes are idiots for practicing hours a day when all they have to do is to run faster or throw a ball through a hoop.

So when you can produce a fabulous sound it is useless to go out about and learn about the physical side off music playing.

Yet there are others who post tidbits or silly remarks instead of engaging the art of discussion on a discussion forum.
Jim Furyk says hello. He won the FedEx Cup a few years ago, in addition to multiple PGA tournaments and at least one Major.
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Re: Problematic attack: how to master?

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Re: Problematic attack: how to master?

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Re: Problematic attack: how to master?

Post by Three Valves »

You push the first valve down... :lol:
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Re: Problematic attack: how to master?

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Re: Problematic attack: how to master?

Post by MaryAnn »

It just reminds me of taking tennis lessons. In the class, the guy had us throw a ball into the receiver's court we wanted to serve to. Then he said ok serve the ball. What he DIDN'T say was "use the throwing motion you just used to throw the ball as the motion with the racquet to serve the ball." So I never did learn to serve and couldn't figure out why he had us throw the ball (I throw like a guy....since I was a kid, thanks to my wonderful dad who played catch with me.) But leaving out "the obvious" in instruction is where the non-natural players fall by the wayside. The obvious-to-the-teacher needs to be just stated to the not-obvious-to-the-student. Same thing in brass; it was only when I got to tuba that anyone even suggested there might be a difference in lip position between playing high and low; all the horn teachers said was "use more air." It got a lot louder but didn't get any higher. I could have been a fine horn player instead of someone who developed dystonia trying to make an embouchure work that had missing tools. I did end up with a fine sound but never a high range; too soon old and too late educated.
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Re: Problematic attack: how to master?

Post by anotherjtm2 »

MaryAnn wrote:... Same thing in brass; it was only when I got to tuba that anyone even suggested there might be a difference in lip position between playing high and low; all the horn teachers said was "use more air." It got a lot louder but didn't get any higher. I could have been a fine horn player instead of someone who developed dystonia trying to make an embouchure work that had missing tools. I did end up with a fine sound but never a high range; too soon old and too late educated.
That's a sad story.
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Re: Problematic attack: how to master?

Post by Alex C »

I studied with the most fabled teacher of the instrument. He always reduced teaching to its most fundamental issue.

Fundamentally, we should articulate with the syllables we use in speaking. Differences in the oral cavity size and shape, teeth, size of the tongue and other issues make any ONE description of tongue placement incorrect for many people. "Place your tongue at the point where your teeth and gums meet," just does not work for everyone.

Speak the syllable "Tooo" several times. You can use another consonant instead of "O" is you wish, because you are working on the articulation. Next, instead of speaking, just blow air using the same "Toooo." You should then alternate between blowing the articulation and playing a note in the instrument using the same "Toooo." Do this until you are confident that you are saying the same thing in both. It should not take long.

It will feel wrong IF in the instrument if you have been playing wrong. Ignore the way it feels when trying to improve.

This is only a first step, training takes about six weeks to establish a new habit and you must want to establish the new habit.

-----------------------------------------------

Other articulations are needed in your arsenal of tools, a "T" attack is only the beginning. You could have as many attacks as you have speech attacks, jazz players certainly do. A "D" attack might be a second tool to work on.

Once you establish these attacks on your instrument consitantly, it should be no harder to change the front of the attack than it is in speaking.

Generally, tuba players tend to articulate much more harshly than trumpet players, do we need more "hit" to start a note? I think not.

Your brain already knows how to make your tongue pronounce, you simply must have the same approach in playing that your have in speaking. That's my take on it.

----------------------------------------------

I once brought a friend to take a lesson from Mr. Jacobs. He was a good player but his limitations were obvious. I sat upstairs in the living room while he had his lesson in the basement, so I could hear the playing, by the end of the lesson my friend sounded like a differnt musican. Even upstairs I could tell that many of his problems had disappeared.

After the lesson we were driving back together and I told him what I thought. I have never forgotten his comment, "Yes, I could hear a difference too, but that's not the way I play." I bet that he never again played at the level he acheived that day. It did not "feel" right to him. He valued "feel" higher than he valued improved results.
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Re: Problematic attack: how to master?

Post by brendanige »

When I play a lot of euphonium or only euphonium for awhile, my response on tuba does suffer.

I buzz some sirens across a fifth or an octave (at around mp to p) across my full range and the problem goes away. That's what makes my face work. To chime in on the discourse here. Yes to song and wind. Yes to air efficiency. Yes to (at times thinking of physical function) and making it more efficient. I do believe there is a time and place for most things.
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Re: Problematic attack: how to master?

Post by hubert »

Problem solved!!!
I managed to solve the problem, I described at the very start of this post.
Thinking that I did not have any problem with attacks, before I switched to the new instrument, AND that I had not changed my way of playing AND remembering an earlier discussion on this forum about the effects of AGRs (Adaptable Gap Receivers) I have brought the mouthpiece a bit further out of the receiver, using simple tape. And yes, at a certain point the attack became clean!! Just for the record: the new mouthpiece position does not cause new problems with intonation, sound etc. Hallelujah!
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