Fun with 419 scams

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:57 am

"419" refes to the Nigerian-gazillions-of-dollars-stuck-in-a-locked-bank-account-please-send-money-to-help-out-and-get-paid-really -BIG scam.

What I didn't know was that there's a bunch of people who have fun scamming the scammers:

http://www.scamorama.com/

Some funny reading here!

CJ Krause · Post by **CJ Krause** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:51 am

Dylan King · Post by **Dylan King** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 3:18 am

So what does "420" reefer to?

Lew · Post by **Lew** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 9:49 am

I get at least 4 of these a week. There was a story about this on NPR. I'm glad someone is wasting their time. Personally, I don't think that it's worth the risk or time to try this. I still can't believe that people fall for this stuff, but some must or they wouldn't keep doing this. The depth of human studpidity is amazing sometimes.

Alex F · Post by **Alex F** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 11:37 am

I think you need to be careful not to engage in activity that would itself be illegal in your efforts to scam the scammers.

I bring this up because of a recent incident that took place here in the Chicago area. I don't remember the sequence of events or all the gory details, but it involved some guy who had his identity stolen. The thief then cleaned out one of the victim's accounts. The victim somehow learned this guy's identity and, basically, stole his money back. The feds were not amused by the victim's creativity and resort to self-help. Both are now charged with identity theft, fraud and felony theft. Again, I don't remember all the details and don't have time at the moment to research the story. but some caution is advised.

ThomasDodd · Post by **ThomasDodd** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:02 pm

Alex F wrote:it involved some guy who had his identity stolen. The thief then cleaned out one of the victim's accounts. The victim somehow learned this guy's identity and, basically, stole his money back. The feds were not amused by the victim's creativity and resort to self-help. Both are now charged with identity theft, fraud and felony theft. Again, I don't remember all the details and don't have time at the moment to research the story. but some caution is advised.

True, but I doubt any jury will convict him. And if so ithe judge would likely be very light in sentencing. If someone takes you stuff, and you take it back you are usually OK. Using illegal means to do so can get you in trouble, but the punishment will be light given the circumstances, particurally if law enforcement has been slow, or unable to do anything.

In the cae you mentioned the original victim is guilty of fraud, but not theft. Taking back possesion of one property is not theft. Violating the law to do so is not good, but sometimes the ends justify the means.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:06 pm

Alex, I wouldn't for one moment suggest that anyone try counter-scamming. But you have to realize that, at one point, the 419 scams amounted for one-third of Niigeria's foreign trade. The government gives lip service toward wiping this out, but isn't about to anytime soon--many scammers work for the Nigerian government themselves. The US State Department has issued several advisories on this subject.

However, the Nigerian scammers are a particularly nasty lot, resorting to kidnapping, murder and extortion. It's good to see that they can be kept occupied by some adventuresome souls.

Doug@GT · Post by **Doug@GT** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:23 pm

Alex F · Post by **Alex F** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 12:34 pm

Chuck, I've gotten some of these e-mails just like everyone else has and can enjoy the prospect of some pay back. Nonetheless, folks do need to think about their actions and potential consquences.

Thomas, I would never advise a client that it was OK to take some action on the belief that he will never be convicted or, if convicted, will face a light sentence. No one can predict what a jury or judge will do. Even if true, these folks still have to face the prospect of paying $10,000 to $35,000 in legal defense costs just because some bull-headed prosecutor wants to have a head to hang on their office wall. I've had a case or two like this.

Sorry guys, this sounds like I'm making a lot more out of this thread than is necessary. That was not my intent.

ThomasDodd · Post by **ThomasDodd** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 1:40 pm

Alex F wrote:Thomas, I would never advise a client that it was OK to take some action on the belief that he will never be convicted or, if convicted, will face a light sentence. No one can predict what a jury or judge will do. Even if true, these folks still have to face the prospect of paying $10,000 to $35,000 in legal defense costs just because some bull-headed prosecutor wants to have a head to hang on their office wall. I've had a case or two like this.

I would never expect a lawyer to give advise like that either. No law enforcement. Anyone contemplating such action would be wise to consider the possile consequences.

Then again, the local sherrif told my folks, when having trouble with roaming pets getting into the chicken coop, make sure it's on the propertry when you report teh kill . And there's the old one about draging the intruder back in the door before the cops arrive.

As to the possible fees. That a problem in the current legal system, especially the civil courts. I would hope, at least in a criminal case, somone would be willing to help pro bono, or at a reduced fee. It's a sad situation that you can be bankrupted defending youself against nearly baseless charges.

Chuck(G) · Post by **Chuck(G)** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 2:50 pm

Alex F wrote:Chuck, I've gotten some of these e-mails just like everyone else has and can enjoy the prospect of some pay back. Nonetheless, folks do need to think about their actions and potential consquences.

Actually, what was done that was illegal on the respondent's side? Using an assumed name under a fake email account, stringing along a crook who was also dealing under an assumed name under a fake email account. One would necessarily have to be careful to release no actual information about oneself in any communication. Not a prospect for neophytes.

If the Nigerian police (or even Interpol) were serious about these scammers, they'd set up sting operations themselves.

Dan Schultz · Post by **Dan Schultz** » Mon Jul 18, 2005 5:16 pm

ThomasDodd wrote:
Alex F wrote:it involved some guy who had his identity stolen. The thief then cleaned out one of the victim's accounts. The victim somehow learned this guy's identity and, basically, stole his money back. The feds were not amused by the victim's creativity and resort to self-help. Both are now charged with identity theft, fraud and felony theft. Again, I don't remember all the details and don't have time at the moment to research the story. but some caution is advised.
True, but I doubt any jury will convict him.

Doesn't matter. The poor jerk is still going to spend a bunch of money on attorneys and will lose many otherwise productive hours defending himself.