Willson Eb tuba 3400-FA5s

[GeoffC_UK]

Afternoon all,

Just bought myself a brand new shiny 3400.

Never owned a front action tuba.

Never owned one with a 5th valve.

Played for years, but this is all new ground. - A land of new discoveries.

Anyone out there that has/ had one with any pointers, advice, do's, don'ts, or get-rid....... happy to hear.

For example, have messed about with 3 mouthpieces and can't decide.........

Or, tuning tricks......

Or, where to buy consumable spares without having to go on a weekend jaunt to Switzerland.

Or, blah di blah

Thanks in advance

Geoff

[rkirkconnell]

With mouthpieces, there are two things you should try to assess. First, how it feels when you play it (both physical feedback and also the sounds in your head), and second, how it actually projects (sounds to the audience). It's best if you can record yourself or get a trusted comrade to gain feedback on that second part. You may decide that it's worth some compromise in playability for a "better" sound or vice versa, but it starts with trying to analyze both sides.

As for adding a 5th valve, you can learn a lot of different alternate fingerings, and sometimes you'll "set" your slides for a certain key and want to use a different fingering for those "out" notes (for example, 235 and 24 are close and can be situational, or 345 vs 134 depending on your setup/1st slide access). Personally, I spent a lot of time mathing out different possible combinations, their order in terms of pitch, and which might be useful. You don't need to go too far in depth if that's not your cup of tea, though - you can just Google "tuba 5 valve fingering chart Eb"

Hope this helps!

[DonnieMac]

The Wilson 3400 is the gold standard EEb tuba. Still have a York 5v had a Nirschl and a Besson, but the Wilson tops them all.
Even though I have a box of tuba MP’s that I rotate through periodically, II’ve settled mostly on a Monette 94 that also works on a Wilson 30500 CC, Rudi 5/4 and a Cerveny Piggy CC.
When a new gig turns up reach for your Wilson EEb. With it you ban cover about everything.

[Jess Haney]

I have owned mine for 10 years. It is my go to horn for practically everything that doesn't require my 3100 BBb. It's great in quintet and in any large ensemble. It has a very even register up and down. I use a helleberg for most stuff with ensembles above 10 and a smaller bowl shaped mouthpiece for quintet. My slide movement is pretty minimal other than 3rd. I have not found it to be mouthpiece sensitive and it really depends on your sound concept. If you are wanting something closer to horns you previously owned such as the Besson, a larger bowl may produce something similar but experiment and play around with some MPs with a tuner. You may already have something that will work. I usually don't purchase a mouthpiece after I get a horn. Instead I usually use one of the 5 and make it work. In reality there are only a few bowl shapes and depths and everything else becomes a copy.

[GeoffC_UK]

With mouthpieces, there are two things you should try to assess. First, how it feels when you play it (both physical feedback and also the sounds in your head), and second, how it actually projects (sounds to the audience). It's best if you can record yourself or get a trusted comrade to gain feedback on that second part. You may decide that it's worth some compromise in playability for a "better" sound or vice versa, but it starts with trying to analyze both sides.

As for adding a 5th valve, you can learn a lot of different alternate fingerings, and sometimes you'll "set" your slides for a certain key and want to use a different fingering for those "out" notes (for example, 235 and 24 are close and can be situational, or 345 vs 134 depending on your setup/1st slide access). Personally, I spent a lot of time mathing out different possible combinations, their order in terms of pitch, and which might be useful. You don't need to go too far in depth if that's not your cup of tea, though - you can just Google "tuba 5 valve fingering chart Eb"

Hope this helps!

It does. Especially about tuning, which I had suspected but wanted others, more experienced, to confirm. Cheers, Geoff

[GeoffC_UK]

It does. Especially about tuning, which I had suspected but wanted others, more experienced, to confirm. Cheers, Geoff

[GeoffC_UK]

The Wilson 3400 is the gold standard EEb tuba. Still have a York 5v had a Nirschl and a Besson, but the Wilson tops them all.
Even though I have a box of tuba MP’s that I rotate through periodically, II’ve settled mostly on a Monette 94 that also works on a Wilson 30500 CC, Rudi 5/4 and a Cerveny Piggy CC.
When a new gig turns up reach for your Wilson EEb. With it you ban cover about everything.

Thanks very much. Very useful. Thanks, Geoff

[GeoffC_UK]

I have owned mine for 10 years. It is my go to horn for practically everything that doesn't require my 3100 BBb. It's great in quintet and in any large ensemble. It has a very even register up and down. I use a helleberg for most stuff with ensembles above 10 and a smaller bowl shaped mouthpiece for quintet. My slide movement is pretty minimal other than 3rd. I have not found it to be mouthpiece sensitive and it really depends on your sound concept. If you are wanting something closer to horns you previously owned such as the Besson, a larger bowl may produce something similar but experiment and play around with some MPs with a tuner. You may already have something that will work. I usually don't purchase a mouthpiece after I get a horn. Instead I usually use one of the 5 and make it work. In reality there are only a few bowl shapes and depths and everything else becomes a copy.

Jess, Thanks. I have 4 x MP and with one more to collect and then I will be done with it. You can end up spending a fortune on seeking nirvana. Reminds me of putters in golf, which I have a small collection of and can never seem to settle on one or other, Geoff

[Jerryleejr]

First congratulations on such a fine purchase, I am trying to acquire its little brother the 3400 compact. (5 month wait special order) as for mouthpieces it’s a journey for sure. I picked up a Besson 180th anniversary mouthpiece which is a Dennis wick 3L and was pleasantly surprised....
https://www.gear4music.com/us/en/Woodwi ... piece/259H
Enjoy your wonderful tuba...

JJ

[GeoffC_UK]

First congratulations on such a fine purchase, I am trying to acquire its little brother the 3400 compact. (5 month wait special order) as for mouthpieces it’s a journey for sure. I picked up a Besson 180th anniversary mouthpiece which is a Dennis wick 3L and was pleasantly surprised....
https://www.gear4music.com/us/en/Woodwi ... piece/259H
Enjoy your wonderful tuba...

JJ

I think I would have preferred the compact also.
It is a heavy tuba, though.
Responsiveness is extremely good.
Will take me a few weeks to get used to it.
Currently using PT-65 which sounds good, but I think a Wick 3L may be worth a toot. Cheers, Geoff

[DouglasJB]

The Willson 3400FA (full size) is the dream Eb, I would live to get my hands on one

[Michael Grant]

Have had my 3400S since 2000 or 2001 (At that time they didn’t have the FA designation). Most of that time it was my only horn. Had experimented with various mouthpieces but have found that the ME-1 (Marty Erickson 1 that Marty designed for that horn and what came with the horn) has been the best fit for me. As for the 5th valve, I have only used it for the low E. Period. I have found no need to use it on any other combination. I had a B & S PT something 5 valve for about 15 years before trading it in for the Willson. I used the 5th valve on that horn a lot. Having been used to a 5th valve and it’s extensive use, I assumed I would be using the 5th valve just as much. I kept trying to find a use for the 5th valve on the Willson but finally came to the conclusion that it wasn’t needed. Yippee. Anyway, congrats on the a great tuba. I imagine you’ll get years of great use from it.

[GeoffC_UK]

The Willson 3400-FA5 is some horn, after blowing it several days.
Beautifully built. Sounds marvellous, even in my clumsy hands, and way better than others I’ve tested recently.
Aesthetically it has few equals.
The sound, in my opinion, is not one that would particularly suit the British-style brass band.
It is way more tight and direct than the old Besson's (nay B&H) whose sound is an enveloping one, and is more homogenous as you need in a quality bass end in many UK bands.

Is it all perfect? – Bluntly, no. That is, as I see it, but I could be proved wrong.

It is very heavy. That message is clear from a few 3400 owners I’ve contacted.
For sure, I know the reason why it is and the benefits this brings, but it remains heavy.
This is exacerbated by its handling.
I find it difficult to grab hold of and move hither and thither, but I am getting to know the places to hold, whilst avoiding dropping it.
The front pistons also do not help with its plus-weight.
You can only put it down on the floor on one side and not the other.
Therefore, again, the poor handling makes this more problematic.
Having a tuba stand is almost essential.
Can I live with this? – Absolutely for all the good stuff.

Clearly, Willson can build quality brass instruments.
I do not have to convince anyone of that.
They build for all players, not just wee Geoff.
But a few niggly things have cropped up which I have addressed and I am addressing, eg. felts.
I am tackling these because I am striving for this tuba to be prefect (for me).
Few examples below, but this is for me to sort and not the manufacturer.

Example-1:
The 3400 accepts a mouthpiece with a European Large shank.
Whilst most of my mouthpieces fit (American standard shank) they nearly bottom out, so this will not help my tuning.
So, I have had to invest in more mouthpieces. Can be expensive.

Example-2:
The piston valves require strongman fingers.
A lot of players like this strong push-back.
I do not.
Therefore I have replaced Willson’s springs with Yamaha which are rated (compression force) lower.
These replacements work wonderfully.

Example-3:
I discovered that the tuba requires a hexagon allen key. Not supplied. Not advised what size.
So, I took measurements and pictures so that I could work it out myself.
This was not that easy because access is not great to that particular location.
But it is done. It is a 4mm (0.157") a/f hexagon by the way.

Example-4:
I like to have a set of consumables spares to hand at all times. This is good practice in my books.
Willson have accessories on their web site, but seem to focus on the euphonium chaps with nothing for tubas.
Went hunting felts on the internet.
The 3400 is purely metricated. An example being the piston shaft is 7mm (0.276") in diameter.
No felts around of that size, most being fractions of an inch that do not exactly match up.
I asked myself whether I wanted to buy Willson felts for the next 10 years.
Willson do not make felts, I guess, their suppliers do.
In my days I have been involved in specifying engineering felts, so know what’s involved (materials and tools).
There are a few felt piece part makers in the UK.
So, I specified some felts and requested a quote for 10 years’ worth of them.
By doing this, I could specify exactly what I needed and not have to compromise.

Felt- Under Button (piston, bottom soft-stop).
Willson have put a small felt under the button.
I does not fill the void under the button by a long way.
Whilst it functions well, it simply looks wrong.

Felt- On Top of valve (piston, top soft-stop)
It is a felt. Same size as the one under the button.
I will look to replace this with a closed cell foam washer.
This will last far longer and will perform better.
Wool felt inside a valve is not a good thing anyway.

Felt- Valve cap recess
My silver-plated Willson is a block of shiny-ness-ness.
I need some colour to somehow break this up.
There is no felt in this recess, today, but I want to put a red or dark green felt in there.

This ends my blog (message).
I will conclude that buying the Willson 3400-FA5 has turned out to be one of my better decisions.
My Willson was bought in Europe in 2020, so the above relates to that model, at that time, in Europe.

[Jess Haney]

One modification I did with my 3400 was to add a Saturn water key to the crook on the 3rd valve tubing right outside the valve casing. This made emptying water much quicker and easier as the 3rd valve tuning slide doesn't have a water key. You just reach inside the horn without moving it...press the key and done.

[GeoffC_UK]

One modification I did with my 3400 was to add a Saturn water key to the crook on the 3rd valve tubing right outside the valve casing. This made emptying water much quicker and easier as the 3rd valve tuning slide doesn't have a water key. You just reach inside the horn without moving it...press the key and done.

After a week I found this slide was the one I've had to pull more often than others. It is not in eye-line so it's not easy to see what you're doing, so a great idea to have water key fitted, G

[Ken38]

Hello, I have switched from Besson 983 to Willson 3400FA-5S just 2 years ago. The reason was just wanting to have a bit tighter sound and released from adjusting pitch - maybe this is a general issue on 983 and particularly pronounced on mine, but overall notes were flat. An additional bonus which I did not expect so much was benefit to have the 5th rortary. Since Besson tubas (981 and 983) were my main tubas for long years, I was comfortable with the fingering for compensated horns (although owning 3050 CC tuba as well). But having alternative fingering, e.g. 523 for E and 53 for F etc., give me lots of ease in many cases. And the best thing I love is, of course, the sweet sound of this horn.
Valve springs were changed to Besson's. Regarding MP, my main are Denis Wick AT Ultra (AT7U and AT6U).

Trade-off is feeling more resistance particularly when playing mid range, which is clearly much harder to play than 983 that is more free-blowing. And 983 is slightly easier to hit high notes when playing solo tunes.

I had the same issue on the 3rd valve slide, so requested to Willson to make a new 3rd valve slide with a water key. Really satisfied. It did not cost so much, highly recommended (but somehow the new one is a bit longer?).

[GeoffC_UK]

Hello, I have switched from Besson 983 to Willson 3400FA-5S just 2 years ago......

All interesting stuff.
I think I shall get a water key fitted to the 3rd slide at some time.
In tuning up I have had to pull the main tuning slide out a very, very long way.
This may be me and my chops, but we'll see how it goes.

New felts ordered. Not that expensive.
Trying foam washers inside valves rather than felts.

G

[2ba4t]

You made the right choice in my humble opinion - provided you enjoy weight lifting. A 5 valve or slide trigger Cverney is the lightest way to play - but of course you have to add the hardware.

I told Herr Fluss of Willson about 30 years ago that he 'must' build a piston comp with this lefthand side bell configuration. He said that the comp valves just would be too long and stick out front or back. I accepted this but it puzzled me. Now of course several people make them. I bought an early 983 some 25 years ago and immediately had the mouthpipe remade much narrower and lower and had two inches taken off the back U loop (on the basis that Besson love flat tubas). So I really had a 984 before they were made. The 983 are a little too mellow and suffer from the 'too big bell syndrome' that ruined the sound of the old Imperials. Yes, and John Fletcher accepted that for solo work but they were far better as orchestral tubas - and of course he sounded wonderful on anything in any context.

I find this compares extremely well with any EEb - but the non-comp 5 valve has the advantage of being better in tune on the lowest notes because the comp system, even with an extended 3 rd valve comp tuning slide, is far too short for the FFF and EEE and 34 becomes GGb. A 5 v also has the advantage that you can make the 5th valve equal to 123 by extending/replacing the slide. This means that AA and EE can be one valve and you have masses of alternatives including slurring perfectly from EEEb to EEE by playing EEEb as a valved note.

Just some thoughts to a lucky man. Best Wishes.

[GeoffC_UK]

Foam washers arrived. These look good. Quick test says they work in my 3400. Valve noise is reduced quite a lot. But doing a few more tests before I replace x 1 of the piston felt soft-stops inside the valve. Will run this test valve a few weeks before changing all the felts over to foam.

[GC]

I was loaned a 3400 a few years ago as a tryout. I loved the way it played, but I had to give it back soon because it was remarkably heavy for its size, and weight was becoming a major consideration for me at that time.

The horn I ended up with plays just as well, fits me better ergonomically (I have a very short torso for my height), and only weighs 18 lb.